I decided to start changing my own oil again, after ~15 years of paying for the service.
After visiting three auto-parts stores, I found a surprising variety of special purpose oils: Truck and SUV, European car, Supercar, Racing, Offroad, High mileage and others. All in the same viscosity ratings. This was new to me, and I have a few questions about them.
Are there any actual differences in results with these? Or would a car-owner be unable to detect a difference as long as he stayed with the recommended viscosity?
Several of these didn’t have the API starburst or donut trademark symbols. Why would some “purpose” oils (from the same manufacturer) be missing these while other formulations displayed them? (Mobil 1 seemed to be the biggest offender).
How good are the store brand oils? They were cheaper, but this time I stayed with well-known brands. The skeptical part of me suspects that, like gasolines, they all come from the same refinery/source.
FTR: I drive a 2 year old Ram 2500 with a gas engine (6.4L). Ended up choosing the “European Car” version since it was the only familiar brand in the required 0W-40 viscosity that also had the trademark symbols.
Posted in IMHO since documented, factual answers may be difficult to provide.
May I direct you to another old-style message board that discusses this very thing in nerdy and exhausting length? In the forums, you’ll find answers to questions you didn’t even have.
That said, standards are a must-have. Your car manual will have the ones it has to meet in order to maintain warranty coverage. In my vehicle’s case, it’s API SP in 0w-20. US and Japanese cars need API rated oil (or JASO, but they track together)- they’ve got the donut and starburst.
95% of the rest is marketing nonsense supported by a tiny bit of real-world difference. For example, the SAE standards for viscosity describe a range of viscosities at specific temperatures. A SAE 30 oil has viscosity between 9.3 and 12.5 centistokes (cSt) at 100 c. SAE 20 has viscosity between 5.6 to 9.3 cSt. So you can see that a “heavy” SAE 20 oil is not much different than a “light” SAE 30 oil. And FWIW, this is the second number in the oil viscosity - the “-20” in 0w-20
Oil retailers will take an oil that’s rated say… 12.3 cSt at 100c and call it a “Truck and SUV” oil, because it’s marginally heavier than the average SAE 30 oil.
Stuff like “Supercar” is just marketing fluff because some “supercar” has that brand/weight as factory fill.
“High Mileage” is slightly different- they’ll be at the top of the viscosity range they’re listed as, and they’ll have more additives that cause the compounds in the engine’s seals to swell up a little bit. The idea here is that the (slightly) higher viscosity and seal-swell additives will reduce oil consumption in older engines. It may or may not be BS; as they say, your mileage may vary.
I would imagine that Mobil is doing something that’s outside the API standards with some of the special-purpose oils. That isn’t as spooky as it sounds; the API standards regulate stuff like certain sorts of (very effective) zinc additives because they can cause higher emissions. So someone may make a “Racing” version that has higher levels of those additives but that can’t pass the API standard as a result. In those cases, it’s all about reputation. I’d also bet it says something like “Recommended for vehicles requriring API SP” or something like that (and other standards as well), meaning that it substantially meets or exceeds those standards, but either the oil doesn’t meet some aspect (zinc anti-wear additive levels) or they didn’t bother to submit it for the testing. Now if it was “Joe’s Racing Oil” from Turkey, TX, and you’ve never heard of Joe’s Racing, I’d steer clear.
Store brand oils are just fine as long as they meet the requisite standards. They’re almost all made by the big boys anyway.
That’s weird that a Ram pickup with a gas engine would need 0w-40. Typically Xw-40 is what prissy European cars use (used to drive a VW that needed it). And it’s surprisingly tough to find out in the wild- if a parts store has it, they’ll usually only have the Mobil 1 or one of the Castrol flavors.
But you did right- stick with the standards and viscosity it calls for, at least until you’re out of warranty. You can’t go wrong there.
IMO too many people overthink it. Just use the viscosity stated in the manual, and make sure the oil meets API SP requirements. Don’t use additives, and change the oil & filter regularly. Also, regularly check the oil level, and do not overfill.
Over the short term. I haven’t seen any long-term comparisons like over 100K miles with changes every 5K. There shouldn’t be any difference but that’s why we test. Also, there could be a difference if people go 10K, 15K, 20K between changes.
On almost every video this guy does, I note something in his methodology that I think is suboptimal, but… he puts a lot of time, thought, and effort into objective and valid testing.
To me, his voice is nails on a chalkboard, but … YMMV [NPI]:
[I think there’s a whole playlist of motor oil test vids here]
That’s just it though. With motor oils, the difference is going to be at the edges, and those edges are way out there. Stuff like racing and extreme performance conditions, and extreme mileage. Just about any standards-based oil can make 250k- that isn’t uncommon. So where/how do you test it to see if say… is better than O’Reilly house brand, if they’re both API rated? 300k? 500k? And does anyone actually care when we get out into those absurd mileage ranges? Maybe long-haul truckers, but few other vehicles get mileage that high.
And change interval is going to be different between manufacturers- most use a algorithmic calculator that tracks several parameters like temperature, time, RPM, etc… to determine when the oil needs to be changed, and I’d also bet they’re rather conservative. So a lot of it comes back to whether you trust the standards and manufacturers (the science) or whether you think you’re equipped based on marketing info to gainsay what they’re telling you.
Standard test methods already exist for motor oils. A quick Google search brings up ASTM D6984, ASTM D5119, SAE J304_201606, ASTM D6709-09, and ASTM D7320. Is the person in the YouTube video performing one of these standards? If not, then it’s pretty much useless.
The nice thing about an API rating (SP, for example) is that you don’t have to do any informational research, e.g. wading through YT videos of questionable validity.
A testing methodology is either valid or it isn’t valid … in its own right.
ETA: Also, meeting an industry standard doesn’t preclude lots of room for variability. It could be argued that everybody who is a licensed driver has met the standard to obtain a driver’s license. This does not mean that all drivers are equally qualified or capable.
and do NOT buy racing oil (even if it sounds tempting) … those have nearly no additive package, esp. lack “cleaning agents”, as in higher-end car racing the oil is being dumped after the race (which might be every 100-200km).
I’d say 200K miles. In my experience that is the point where it might make sense to get another car rather than repairing the old one.
I’m just pointing out that the effect of different oils (conventional v synth; generic but certified v top-tier, 5K v 10K intervals) over the long-term has not been studied AFAIK. So we don’t know if there is a significant difference at, let’s say, 100K
That’s true, but it doesn’t matter how valid the testing methodology is, if what’s being tested isn’t relevant. I mean, you could come up with a perfectly valid testing methodology that shows which oil is better in 70 F temperatures, but that doesn’t really tell you much, as it’s neither a very cold start, nor operating temperature for an engine, much less a temperature representative of extreme conditions.
For example, the guy in those videos does his wear tests at room temperature. What good is that? The insides of engines are like 190F at the coolest. And what pressure is he putting on them? Is it representative of the conditions in a bearing? His cold flow is better, but does it really show much?
No, but it’s at the upper end of the mileage range for most vehicles.
What I’m getting at is that if it meets the standards, it’s likely good for such a huge number of miles that it doesn’t matter whether you’re buying SuperTech (Walmart house brand) or Pennzoil Platinum. At the mileage ranges where oil brand might make a difference, there are SO many variables that would muddy the waters- how often you changed your air filter, how you drove the vehicle, number of cold starts, and how cold they were, the specific engine that they were used in, and so forth.
You’re right, there isn’t much testing out there. But there’s LOTS of anecdotal evidence showing that it flat out doesn’t matter. And what testing there is, corroborates that. The (in)famous Consumer Reports test using taxicabs over 60k miles showed no significant difference between brands.
As far as synthetic vs. conventional; that’s effectively not an issue anymore. The standards have become tight enough that only oils that perform like synthetics of old will pass them in most modern grades, so most oils are “synthetic” these days (i.e. Group II+/III or higher base stocks), especially in the 0w cold ratings and any non winter grade 20 or under.
You’re free to disagree. But industry test standards exist for a reason. While no standard is perfect, the standards are constantly scrutinized, edited, and updated by committees consisting of chemists, tribologist, and chemical engineers who work in the field. They hold more weight, and are considered more legit, then anyone performing experiments on YouTube.
I absolutely agree with your points re: methodology vs. relevance.
But I’d say that – presuming a methodology isn’t inherently flawed – the points you make – IMHO – go much more to weight – ie, how much importance we might give a particular result.
To go a bit farther: if “Project Farm” is conducting a room temperature wear test using a bearing submerged in a given oil (a “bearing scar” test), and that oil has already passed ASTM testing, I think there’s value in that test.
How much value? Not a ton. Not none. Some.
We know it meets all the basic industry standards. How else does it stack up against the competition in other sorts of valid testing?
I would agree that an engine oil taste test – even one properly executed – would add very little value to me as an ICE vehicle owner
And for any who’d like to take a deeper dive into the commentary on Project Farm’s engine oil tests … I give you … the BobIsTheOilGuy PF rabbit hole.
To set a minimum. Further testing like what Project Farm does challenges how far beyond the bare minimum is.
You (generic you, not you DavidNRockies) can’t convince me that Pennzoil Ultra Platinum is the same oil as 7-11 brand oil despite passing the same tests. FTR I don’t know if 7-11 s certified. If not just substitute your least favorite low-cost conventional oil.
But they establish a minimum, right? No more, no less.
They don’t – in any way, shape or form – set out to declare that all engine oils that meet that minimum standard are either equivalent or equal.
Neither do they set out to rank each oil in terms of a set of metrics that might matter to the average consumer. It’s a few certifications and pass/fail, no?
There are surely any number of differences among oils that all meet that minimum standard. Can’t those differences be characterized and measured?
You and I are tag-teaming this.
From what I’ve seen on Project Farm, no every oil is the same starting my car during an Arctic Blast in north North Dakota or stuck stop-and-go in Phoenix with the A/C full blast in August .
So no Youtube experiment ever shown has value when comparing any two products that meet the same certification? And if it did, the certification body should add it to their test to establish a floor of functionality?
They aren’t ranking oils. They aren’t picking winners and losers.
It’s similar to the Recommended Dietary Allowance. It’s establishing nutritional minimums, but does not say that other diets aren’t actually healthier, nor does it prescribe what an individual’s diet should be.
They leave that to others.
ETA: one more analogy…
Food having been certified as “Organic” still leaves LOTS of possible descriptors and characteristics that might be of interest to consumers but is NOT in the USDA’s remit:
It’s a minimum standard. Market segmentation and product differentiation begin – not end – there.
Also, IIRC, ASTM engine oil test results aren’t widely/publicly available.
Other organizations that do comparable testing … when you look at the test results … the average consumer probably doesn’t get much help from the kind of data presented:
