Questions about Norse mythology/religion

Factual Questions
1

I just got done reading “Norse Mythology” by Neil Gaiman. It’s a good read, nothing I hadn’t read before in other mythology collections but Gaiman is a great storyteller. But anyway, it got me thinking of some things…

  1. MAN, Norse mythology is bleak and grim! And it’s not something you should read in the depressing doldrums of winter. (I just had to get that out.)

  2. Did people actually worship Loki? He’s such a prominent figure in the myths that have survived, and certainly a great character from a literary standpoint. But I can’t understand why people would worship him. I can see the Norse praying to Thor for rain to water crops, to Tyr for victory in battle, to Freya for healthy and abundant crops, for Odin as the all-father, most powerful being. But what benefit could Norse tribesmen get from preying or sacrificing to Loki? He doesn’t seem to be associated with any particular sphere of influence where making offerings to him would be useful. Also, given his propensity in the myths to just eff over anyone and everyone, how could mere mortals hope that their ritual offerings would convince Loki to do anything for them?

  3. I don’t know if this is something Gaiman may have added, or it’s something in myths that I just never picked up on before, but it seems as if Odin and Loki have some kind of yin/yang dual/opposition theme going. As per Gaiman, no one (not even the other Asgardians) know exactly where Loki came from, or how he got to be blood-brothers with Odin. They are alike in a lot of ways: Both Odin and Loki are shapeshifters, and they both use cunning and trickery to achieve their goals. And the ways they are different seem to have a symmetry: In the beginning of time, Odin brought light into the world. He sacrificed himself and his eye in order to gain wisdom to be a better leader (self-sacrificing – literally). Loki on the other hand extinguishes the light. He is all about self-preservation, and at the end of the myth cycle is forcibly imprisoned in a torturous situation. Odin has three sons (Thor, Balder, and Tyr) who exemplify all that is great and good according to Viking culture. Loki has three children who are the ultimate evils: Jormungandr (the Midgard serpent), Fenrir, and Hel. Am I right in seeing a parallel between them?

  4. The giant Aegir has nine daughters who are the waves on the ocean. There are nine valkyries. Odin hung himself from the tree Yggdassil for nine days and nine nights. He has a ringlet Draupnir that every nine days creates eight identical ringlets (for a total of nine ringlets.) What is with the Norse and the number nine?

2

That’s how many fingers you have left once one gets bitten off?

Other than that, I got nothin’.

3

The factual answer is that we don’t really know much about Norse religion. Practically all the stories came to us through Christian writers.

They didn’t really get to pick and choose. All the gods were worshipped (in their way), and most of the religious rites and practices was conducted by whoever happened to be in charge of the area. Smaller rituals would be performed individually, of course, and for the usual things–childbirth, setting off on a journey, building a new house or ship, sickness, etc.

To the Norse, worshipping the gods mostly meant holding to tradition. In other words, their everyday life was an act of worship.

Their religion was most likely very similar to any other Indo-European religion. Tyr was probably the head god, Odin was the god of music or storytelling, and Thor was the god of thunder (a small step from there to the god of war).

Loki was kind of the breakout character of the Norse stories. We don’t know where he came from originally, but everybody wants to talk about him. Theories on his origins are that he represents the chaos of nature, that he was a witch or a skin-changer, or that he was the darker facet of the god Lotharr.

4

Many societies have a trickster god.

He also, in the form of a mare, gave birth to Odin’s horse, Sleipnir, so he has that sexual/gender duality too.

Followers of Loki would be the criminals and outcasts who see themselves as being that kind of force/enemy/ally of their own people, just as you have people identifying with Satan in the Christian mythos.

5

Loki was also a fire god, so maybe that.

6

I agree that it’s a really bleak mythology–and grim itself is an old Norse word.

Isn’t nine a special number because it’s 3 times three?
The nine rings reminded me of Tolkien, whose academic research and personal interest in Norse mythology is strongly reflected in his creative work.

7

I don’t know much about Norse religion per se, but do bear in mind that in many antique/medieval pantheons many gods were worshipped (or rather, propitiated) not so much so that they’d do things for you but so they’d leave you well enough alone and/or not be angry at you for no reason as the capricious cunts were wont to. Basically the gods were often seen a giant bullies acting on whims, and people tend to suck up to bullies and aim them at other people :).

Beyond that, Loki (as well as any trickster god) would be the go-to guy for devil’s advocates, doing things that might break with traditions or conventional wisdom, people seeking to challenge the statu-quo or living in the margins of society. Loki’s a giant dick, sure, but like Coyote or Anansi he’s not so much a rule breaker as he is a rules lawyer. Finding loopholes to be a dick through while still keeping strictly to his word. He’s… well, he’s the scrawny nerd in a pantheon of burly brawlers, and still getting the best of them more often than not (you know, when he’s not tricking himself into getting fucked by a horse… it’s a long story :D).
Surely people on this forum can see the appeal :wink:

8

He wasn’t worshipped in the sense most people of Western or Abrahamic religions mean by worship - and neither were the other Norse Gods. As already mentioned, that religion, for the average person, has more to do with following customs and traditions than sitting in a building once a week singing praises. A lot of worship back then consisted of appeasing the Gods so they wouldn’t notice you and cause problems for you.

Loki is often portrayed as a Satan-like entity both by the invading Christian religion documenters and by modern media but his role is more complex. As noted, he’s a trickster (so is Odin, for that matter). Positives include the invention of fishing nets. He’s the mother of Odin’s horse. He’s the one the gods turn to when they have a problem they can’t solve, like needing to get out of a contract with they guy rebuilding the walls of Asgard (they were going to have to hand over the sun, moon, and Freya - this is the myth than led to sleipnir). It should be noted that Loki was also the origin of the original contract here, he had to rules-lawyer and trick his way out of a scheme he himself made.

Then there was that business of needing to get Thor’s hammer back after it was stolen, which featured Thor in drag, and Loki having to do a lot of fast-talking to account for why “Freya” looked so damn ugly.

Loki’s machinations also resulted in the creation of Thor’s hammer Mjollnir, the previously mentioned ring Draupnir, a magic boar with golden bristles, a magic ship that could be folded up and put in your pocket, the spear Gungnir, and probably other things I don’t remember at the moment.

Once recurring theme with Loki is that he’s strongly associated with fire, and like fire he’s a useful servant but a poor master. When he’s under the control of the Aesir (frequently, threat of maiming or death) he creates positively. When not, you get things like the Midguard serpent, the Fenrir wolf, and Hel. He’s a dangerous force but one that could potentially be controlled and used positively.

So I could see someone wanting the cleverness of Loki when needing to get out of a bad situation and think outside the box.

For how that translated into possible human veneration, here is a possible “hearth stone” for use in a forge. Which seems appropriately adorned with a god of fire controlled for the purpose of forging metal.

Odin was more a deity for the warrior/ruling class - the stay-at-home farmer or tradesman was much more likely to look towards Thor. It wasn’t just for rain, Thor was also a protector. Odin is actually pretty damn grim in the original myths. Then there’s the temple at Uppsala which reputedly featured tress festooned with the hung corpses of men, dogs, and horses as ritual sacrifices to Odin (the Hanged God, remember). Odin was not a nice guy in the original myths.

It’s more a matter of asking Loki to NOT eff up your life, I think.

But… in fact there isn’t really any evidence of any sort of cult or veneration of Loki. There probably were people who “followed” him, but they were a distinct minority when/where they existed at all.

It’s the sacred number three multiplied by itself, therefore very magical.

9

There was never any Loki cult or worship. We know this because there are no remaining cult objects or places named after him (in contrast to Odin, Tor, Frey, Ull, etc.). He was a figure of tales rather than religion, it seems.

10

This is important. And also important is that what those Christian writers noted was mostly the mythos, not the religious practice.

There are some stories in the sagas involving religious and magical ritual among the holdouts during Christianisation, there are elements in the myths that hint at religious practices, there is archaeological finds of cult objects, and there is Norse age place names in Scandinavia, that together gives us some framework to put guesses on.

What they show is a tradition of ritual sacrifice and specific times. The continuation of ancestor worship and sacrificing to burial mounds was common (and continued way beyond Christianisation) and the most important every day gods were Thor and Frey, with Odin being more of a god for rulers. There were likely female centered worship of the main goddesses, which we have even less remaining evidence of. And the main focus of worship likely varied through time and location.

And whatever other points I wanted to cover have already been covered by Broomstick, but a heads up if you go googling, there’s a lot of “facts” about Norse religion out there that is plain made up, and some time when it appears to have scholarly sources, those sources are chock full of conjecture.

11

Yes, I cant find any hof, veor hörgr dedicated to Loki.

We dont know much about how the Norse worshipped. We have found ruins of Shrines (ve) stone altars (hörgr) and temples;* Hof.* We know they did a lot of blood sacrifices. Mostly animals but humans too, on rare (?) occasion .

But that is why we dont know much. Sure when the Norse went Christian, their priests and Monks were happy to keep their stories or sags alive. But blood and especially human sacrifice was very taboo.

12

The Snaptun hearthstone is quite interesting. It has been interpreted as a depiction of Loki, with his lips tattered as a result of the punishment received after trying to spoil the work of the dwarven smiths Brokk and Eitre. So, the blacksmith who used it may have intended it as a warning: Keep out of my business!

13

By the way if you haven’t read AS Byatt’s Ragnarok, it’s terrific.

14

The last, not necessarily. The devil doesn’t have much in the way of churches dedicated to him but he still is an important figure in Christianity (how much will vary by denomination and temporal frame) and he’s part of many religious images. A figure or idea can be an important part of a religion without being a subject of worship.

15

Marvel’s Thor comics, as well as other pop culture images of him, have given Loki a bad rap. As pointed out above, Loki was a Trickster Figure. He wasn’t a God of Evil or anything like that. Trickster Figures are worldwide, and they have both good and bad aspects. They come up with clever ruses, for which we admire them, but they sometime overstep their bounds, and get punished for it. But they’re immortal, so, no matter how badly hurt they are, they come back to be heroes of another story. Raven and Anansi and the Hare in West Africa. I once wrote a piece for our dearly departed Teemings entitled “The Persistence of Bugs Bunny” about our own Trickster Figure in modern Pop Culture – Bugs Bunny. He meets all the criteria. Furthermore, he’s a rabbit, like the Trickster figures in three different areas in the world were. Is there something innately rabbit-ish about the Trickster figure? And/or did the animators at Warner Brothers’ “Termite Terrace” independently come up with the idea, or steal it from one of those. Although “Teemings” is gone, someone rep[ublished the essay (with my permission) here: Trail of the Trail: The Persistence of Bugs Bunny: Take 2

16

And don’t forget about El-ahrairah.

17

Rochard Adams did a helluva job in creating his rabbit society and rabbit mythology, but I feel a little reticent to cite Watership Down as an example of a society with a Trickster mythology. Or a Rabbit as Trickster.

18

He may not be specifically a God of Evil, but unlike the usual Trickster Figure (I might be wrong here, my knowledge of other Trickster Figures is very superficial) Loki plays a big role in the end of the world, deliberately on the side of evil and destruction. His three monstrous children play important roles killing major gods and he himself will die in battle against Heimdall.

19

A friend of mine who was at the time doing a phD in Norse studies once said that the only Norse god to get no worship was Ægeir.

On Loki, the Norse had a contempt for weakness, and the Loki was ever contrary. So if you were weak and abused by someone stronger, you could call on Loke to f them up. Also, he was known to fight for the low, such as when trolls were after their children and Odin and his brothers had proved useless.

I read Gaimans Norse Mythology and it was a good read, but very Thor-centric. The other gods were generally standing around wringing their hands when Thor was not there, which did not sound much like them.

20

Try reading Jane T. Sibley’s Norse Mythology According to Uncle Einar.

Jane Sibley (Auntie Arwen at the SF Conventions) takes a down-home approach to Norse Mythology that treats Loki as the Trickster he is.