Questions about the language of Hieroglyphs

[rogerbox]

1. I was told by a teacher in high school who I respected quite a lot, that “Hieroglyphics” is a misnomer and was created by laypeople and that respected scholars would never use the word “Hieroglyphics” which is that little rubber stamp kit you get at the museum for kids. Is this so?

2. Do we have any idea what the ancient Kemetians who used the hieroglyphs called their language?

3. Were there any languages other than ancient Kemetian that used Hieroglyphs for their written language? For example there are old Korean and Vietnamese writings that use Chinese characters for their writing before those languages developed their own characters and written language. Or if you see something in Hieroglyphs it is always one language only?

4. From my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) there were varying degrees of competency in Hieroglyphs, and an Egyptian official could be considered “literate” if he could sign his name and make a document official. Is this true? It sounds hard to believe because I would think almost anyone can memorize how to write down their own name pretty quickly, so it shouldn’t be that special an ability. So was ancient Hieroglyph writings as systematized as say, modern English writing, or did certain scribes have their own “way” of writing that is open to more interpretation?

5. What percentage of ancient writings in Hieroglyphs can we understand fully? Are there examples of writings in Hieroglyphs that we have no idea the meaning of?

[Exapno_Mapcase]

From Google scholar:
Hieroglyph: 16,000 hits, many of them about Mayan culture.

hieroglyph egyptian: 20,500 results.

So 1 is ludicrous. And 3 has a yes answer. I’ll leave the rest to experts.

[rogerbox]

@Exapno_Mapcase

From Google scholar:
Hieroglyph: 16,000 hits, many of them about Mayan culture.

hieroglyph egyptian: 20,500 results.

So 1 is ludicrous. And 3 has a yes answer. I’ll leave the rest to experts.

Sorry but you didn’t answer my #1, which was if scholars would use the term hieroglyphICS, not the word ‘hieroglyphs’.

[gnoitall]

@rogerbox

Sorry but you didn’t answer my #1, which was if scholars would use the term hieroglyphICS, not the word ‘hieroglyphs’.

Scholars would most certainly use the work “hieroglyphic” as an adjective. But the correct noun form is “hieroglyph” or “hieroglyphs” in the plural.

If you’re talking about the improper back-formation of the noun from the adjective, sure, it happens. And since this kind of thing is how language mutates over time, it’s possible that some day “hieroglyphic” as a noun may become acceptable.

Amusing semi-related anecdote: The online role-playing game World of Warcraft has a variety of crafting skills in the game to create usable objects or enhancements to existing objects. One of these skills is “Inscription”: writing inscriptions, scrolls, etc. to enhance items, and creating new items by marking runes or spells on plain objects to empower them.

Apparently, this was a novelty to much of the player population of the game. “Inscription” is, after all, a real word, but no one knew what to call someone who creates an inscription. By consensus, they seemed to settle for “inscriber”. “Inscriptor” seemed to run a distant, much-mocked, second.

Evidently, the correct word “scribe” isn’t sufficiently commonly used. :smack:

[gnoitall]

@rogerbox

1. I was told by a teacher in high school who I respected quite a lot, that “Hieroglyphics” is a misnomer and was created by laypeople and that respected scholars would never use the word “Hieroglyphics” which is that little rubber stamp kit you get at the museum for kids. Is this so?

2. Do we have any idea what the ancient Kemetians who used the hieroglyphs called their language?

According to Wikipedia:

@Wikipedia

The word hieroglyph comes from the Greek adjective ἱερογλυφικός (hieroglyphikos) a compound of ἱερός (hierós ‘sacred’) and γλύφω (glýphō ‘Ι carve, engrave’; see glyph), in turn a calque of Egyptian mdw·w-nṯr (medu-netjer) ‘god’s words’. The glyphs themselves were called τὰ ἱερογλυφικὰ γράμματα (tà hieroglyphikà grámmata) ‘the sacred engraved letters’. The word hieroglyph has become a noun in English, standing for an individual hieroglyphic character. As used in the previous sentence, the word hieroglyphic is an adjective, but is often erroneously used as a noun in place of hieroglyph.

Emphasis mine.

The first bit I bolded indicates that the native name was “medu-netjer”, and has the following bibliographic citation:

Antonio Loprieno, Ancient Egyptian: A Linguistic Introduction (Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1995), 11.
The second bit I bolded agrees with your teacher’s assertion, but isn’t cited. It seems right in my experience, but take an uncited statement in Wikipedia for what it’s worth.

[rogerbox]

@gnoitall

According to Wikipedia:Emphasis mine.

The first bit I bolded indicates that the native name was “medu-netjer”, and has the following bibliographic citation:

That same teacher told me it was pronounced like medu-necher, I just forgot. :smack:

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@rogerbox

Sorry but you didn’t answer my #1, which was if scholars would use the term hieroglyphICS, not the word ‘hieroglyphs’.

Sorry, but that wasn’t clear to me. You can check scholar.google.com yourself for any words you want to search for. However, hieroglyphics gets 37,000 hits and hieroglyphics Egyptian more than 20,000.

[deltasigma]

@rogerbox

3. Were there any languages other than ancient Kemetian that used Hieroglyphs for their written language? For example there are old Korean and Vietnamese writings that use Chinese characters for their writing before those languages developed their own characters and written language. Or if you see something in Hieroglyphs it is always one language only?

I’m pretty sure Egyptian pictograms are unique, differing even from hieratic and Ethiopic. But there are of course plenty of pictographically based scripts in the ancient world such as cuneiform which was used by the Babylonians, Akkadians, Assurians and even Hittites.

@rogerbox

5. What percentage of ancient writings in Hieroglyphs can we understand fully? Are there examples of writings in Hieroglyphs that we have no idea the meaning of?

IDK about percentages but I’d though that the only ancient script that is as yet still undeciphered was Linear A. However a quick search revealed quite a few more.

[blindboyard]

@deltasigma

I’m pretty sure Egyptian pictograms are unique, differing even from hieratic and Ethiopic. But there are of course plenty of pictographically based scripts in the ancient world such as cuneiform which was used by the Babylonians, Akkadians, Assurians and even Hittites.

Cuneiform is based on straight lines, it’s not really pictographic. And the Hittites had their own hieroglyphic language too.

[deltasigma]

@blindboyard

Cuneiform is based on straight lines, it’s not really pictographic.

That’s a common misconception. Cuneiform was originally pictographic but later became more stylized.

Emerging in Sumer in the late 4th millennium BC (the Uruk IV period), cuneiform writing began as a system of pictographs. In the third millennium, the pictorial representations became simplified and more abstract as the number of characters in use grew smaller, from about 1,000 in the Early Bronze Age to about 400 in Late Bronze Age (Hittite cuneiform).

BTW. I did a search on Hittite hieroglyphs and it turns out those are actually Luwian

[blindboyard]

@rogerbox

3. Were there any languages other than ancient Kemetian that used Hieroglyphs for their written language? For example there are old Korean and Vietnamese writings that use Chinese characters for their writing before those languages developed their own characters and written language. Or if you see something in Hieroglyphs it is always one language only?

I believe the Meroitic peoples used hieroglyphs to write in their own language. Apart from that, though, the written language in the ancient Middle East that was adopted outside it’s original area was Akkadian cuneiform, not Egyptian hieroglyphs.

4. From my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) there were varying degrees of competency in Hieroglyphs, and an Egyptian official could be considered “literate” if he could sign his name and make a document official. Is this true? It sounds hard to believe because I would think almost anyone can memorize how to write down their own name pretty quickly, so it shouldn’t be that special an ability. So was ancient Hieroglyph writings as systematized as say, modern English writing, or did certain scribes have their own “way” of writing that is open to more interpretation?

Most writing wasn’t done in hieroglyphs, but in hieratic and demotic. Documents tend to be written in those languages, on papyrus or clay. Hieroglyphs were more for the monumental inscriptions.

5. What percentage of ancient writings in Hieroglyphs can we understand fully? Are there examples of writings in Hieroglyphs that we have no idea the meaning of?

It’s very well understood, the biggest problem is inscriptions which are no longer legible.

[Floater]

If you’re interested in hieroglyphs and how Jean-François Champollion learnt to interpret them I can strongly recommend a book called The Keys of Egypt by Roy and Lesley Adkins.

[Broomstick]

@gnoitall

Amusing semi-related anecdote: The online role-playing game World of Warcraft has a variety of crafting skills in the game to create usable objects or enhancements to existing objects. One of these skills is “Inscription”: writing inscriptions, scrolls, etc. to enhance items, and creating new items by marking runes or spells on plain objects to empower them.

Apparently, this was a novelty to much of the player population of the game. “Inscription” is, after all, a real word, but no one knew what to call someone who creates an inscription. By consensus, they seemed to settle for “inscriber”. “Inscriptor” seemed to run a distant, much-mocked, second.

Evidently, the correct word “scribe” isn’t sufficiently commonly used. :smack:

I’ve also seen “inscriptionist”, including in my own guild which is mostly composed of college-educated adults.

But hey, it’s a game and who wants to be uptight?