I realize this falls deeply into ‘we’ll probably never know’ territory, but is there something psychological that includes suicidal depression with the desire to take out a bunch of people with the depressed?
I guess I could look at the events and think ‘he did it after realizing he was in over his head’, that seems to happen with a significant percentage of mass shootings, unfortunately. But based on initial decriptions, if he was a firearms instructor, you’d think he’s gone through all the outcomes of something like this.
I have no answer except to note that while many (most?) mass shooters may be depressed there are a huge number of people who are depressed who never shoot anyone.
I’m not sure the two should be linked like this.
Also, I am not sure depression was at issue with the Maine shooter. Or, at least, there seemed other problems as well.
I guess I’m trying to find some kind of commonality in something that probably doesn’t have a logical connection (mass Murder + suicide)
Unfortunatley, the psychological research seems to be still ongoing…and the general deadlock in society from a legislative standpoint seems to keep us from being able to address the issue.
I don’t think there’s any direct link (I know this is FQ, but I haven’t seen any factual/scientific consensus on this topic), but there is almost certainly an emotional connection.
Depression, chemical, emotional, derived from or supported by direct experiences can lead to despair - a point at which you feel like giving up and/or there is no longer any hope for improvement.
Regardless of the motivation for a shooting (mass or otherwise), once the immediate action is over, many (although by no means all, see Dylan Roof as a counter) shooters seem to feel trapped (duh), that there is no escape (equal duh), and fall into the same emotion of despair albeit from a different direction.
Combine the emotion, the immediate at hand weapon (see our arguments on suicide being a horrific combination of motive and opportunity) and an even semi-rational realization of the likely consequences for their acts, and suicide by firearm becomes common.
So while there is overlap with opportunities and end results of depression-based suicides, I don’t think there’s any real causation relation.
At this point it’s pretty clear he didn’t have any advanced tactical training with the army. He had been a reservist since 2002 but had zero deployments. I have seen nothing concrete about the claim that he was a firearms instructor. He may have paid for one of the certifications that the NRA offers.
No, I think the big factor with these mass shooters are that they are very angry: because of situations with an ex-girlfriend/wife, bosses/coworkers, landlord… or have been really riled up against blacks, gays, immigrants, women… by acquaintances, extremist media, internet sources…
Psychological depression makes you less likely to do anything at all.
Hearing voices however isn’t depression. At least not in a simple view of a taxonomy of illness. It suggests at least a contributing psychotic episode.
Nothing is simple and there is going to be a lot of “we will probably never know”. But this doesn’t sound like the typical disgruntled employee, although it has shades of it.
IMHO this sounds like someone who fell between the cracks of mental health care. Something that is altogether too easy. Someone presenting with symptoms of psychosis needs immediate care, not simply being fired from their job. And certainly not being left with access to firearms.
I think it’s societal. At least that’s my hypothesis – that there’s an idea that’s somehow settled deep within the American consciousness, that if things get bad enough, you can (and maybe even should) go out with a literal “bang” and become a mass shooter. That this is somehow the way to get revenge upon the society that wronged you.
It’s become an almost uniquely American phenomenon, and I think it’s something about American society and culture that explains it. Certainly our gun culture is part of it, but not the whole of it, IMO.
Agree. I can see where someone wants to lash out at a society they perceived to have shunned or wronged them. But what would motivate some to go shoot up a school? That seems uniquely common in the US as well.
So tiptoing around politics, I’m wondering if there’s a correlation to political leanings…potentially (ironically) devaluing life (considering pro-life stuff I’m not getting into).
There’s a bunch of directions this thought experiment could lead including desensitization to violence, messaging that dehumanizes others, the lack of teaching empathy, childhood trauma that lots of people have, but a percentage never gets past, aaaaand if you have enough people close enough together, some of them will be pathological.
Maybe the only way he could bring himself to take his own life was to create a point of no return by changing the calculus from suicide vs life to suicide vs life in prison.
The same mental illnesses that tend to cause one to be a danger to others would tend to make one a danger to oneself as well. Add easy access to guns into the mix and you have a recipe for mass shootings ending in suicide. Take the mental illness out of the equation, and… you still have a recipe for mass shootings ending murder-suicide, because mental illness is not required.
Not that I question the motivations of this thread, but the general trend towards pinning mass shootings on mental illness (untreated or otherwise) is… problematic, to say the least.
There’s a fallacious assumption that what led to the mass shooting is independently and directly what led to the suicide.
It could be that, regardless of what causes someone to commit mass murder, that the realization of what they have done and its consequences is what prompts suicide. In other words, that they weren’t suicidal until they had a moment to think after the killing.
I mean, it might have to do with underlying suicidal ideation, but I’m not sure that can be known for certain from the events.
I don’t want to start a new thread so I’m going to add this here. This man’s family, a fire arms dealer and the Army sent clear signals that something was amiss. It seems to me that we have absolutely nothing in place to deal with these signals. When you report an adult as unstable who is available to address it? Seems to me…no one.
Some of it is determined by each state. Some is federal case law. For firearms, Maine has a so-called Yellow Flag Law. It’s a pro gun state so red flag law was a non-starter at the time. Maybe that will change now. I’ve seen the law labeled as weak but I don’t know the particulars. My state has a stronger red flag law and I had to use it several times.
I do know from years of experience it is very hard to get someone help who is too delusional or mentally ill to want help. They have to be actively threatening someone or themselves otherwise it’s their choice to be treated or not. I’ve had screeners explain to me “That’s his normal level of delusion” when dealing with someone with severe auditory and visual hallucinations. For several decades I’ve felt there has to be a better middle ground between locking up everyone who might be considered crazy and letting everyone with severe mental illness on their own until they hurt themselves or others. So far I’ve seen no movement.
From what I have seen “yellow flag laws” are nearly worthless. Red flag laws seem ineffective…yellow flag laws are worse. A feel-good law that does nothing. IIRC Maine’s yellow-flag laws were written by the NRA. They were never meant to be useful. If this guy was not sufficient to trigger these protections then what does it take?
How did that go? I can’t imagine a person would be happy any time the police shows up and demands they relinquish their firearms. And I also can’t imagine 100% of the time it’s for valid reasons and and not a disgruntled ex-spouse…
