Questions for Christians

Of course, that all kind of hinges on the Omniscient deity not noticing you were deliberately trying to game the process. Your best hope is They give you credit if your particular attempt at finessing is especially clever. But I must expect the bar is set high.

And yeah, in general mainstream Christianity, “ah, I’ve said the magic words I Accept Jesus as My Personal Lord and Savior, so now I can deliberately sin with no consequence” is not how it all works. Like the Big JC said, the idea is “now go and sin no more”. You are forgiven, but stop it.

(That also goes into the difference of the way some denominations view salvation as a single-point event, vs. as a lifetime process. There is a reason Catholicism has a sacrament of individual Confession/Reconciliation. ‘Cause they KNOW you’ll mess up again.)

Made famous by Rasputin IIRC

I think the attitude is “The Bible is the Official Rule Book. I personally get to interpret it, and God has to follow it according to my interpretation.”

Christ’s teachings are based on faith. Faith and logic are opposites. Religion is a human institution that gets itself into trouble when it tries to be logical.

Throughout the gospel, when people ask Christ for something he answers that it is not him, it is the faith of the one requesting it. Some lady cured her medical issue by touching his robe. He told her that it was her faith. Whenever anyone asks him how he knows what he is talking about, he says that it is what the Father told him.

A Methodist minister explained to me that faith comes from the heart, not from the head. Logic demands proof of everything. Faith defines itself by its refusal to provide proof. Yet logic always needs to start from definitions, things we take, often temporarily, on faith.

The religion of Jesus time had fallen into some logical traps. If God controls everything but something bad happens to you, you must have done something to get God upset. When Israel followed God’s rules and made him happy, they won their wars. When local empires developed and overpowered Israel, the logical conclusion was that God was upset with them.

On Palm Sunday, the city of Jerusalem welcomed the military leader who would drive out the Romans. After hearing him in person, they felt betrayed by his pacifism. They manipulated the Romans into the crucifixion. God’s plan was actually bigger than our petty little wars. When Israel remained a part of it, Jesus’ message spread throughout the Roman Empire. That’s why we still here about him today.

There are several layers to the Bible. It is a translation, of a verbal transmission, of man’s interpretation of God’s inspiration. The thickness of the different layers varies. The verbal transmission of Genesis went for so long that social standards changed. With Paul’s letters, we may actually have the original hard copy. We still see the interpretation of a first century man trying to be logical though.

When Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac, human sacrifice may still have been an accepted practice. It was a way to keep up with the Jones’s. Notice how the guest of honor was tricked into it. It sounds like Abraham realized that something wasn’t right about it. He went on to lead his people into replacing humans with animals. By the time the story was written, human sacrifice had become unthinkable. Abraham does deserve some credit though.

Now Paul was a pharisee steeped in the logic of the time. After his epiphany, much of his writing pokes holes in the old logic. He attempts to introduce a new logic though. He sells the idea that accepting Christ solves everything. For a real example of human interpretation check out his exasperated and sexist rant about hats in the first half of 1 Corinthians 11.

The bible does have its logical contradictions. This ancient wisdom of our western culture comes from a time before modern logic was fully developed. It can still provide valid insight and inspiration. People now are not really all that different from what we were thousands of years ago.

No. What people think about Christ’s teachings is based on faith. He actually said very little if you’re just going by the words attributed to him Bible.

And most of what he said was about how people ought to treat each other, most of which agrees with what most other major religions say about that.

So, basically you’re saying the Jews killed Jesus?

More accurate to say that the mob killed Jesus. Mobs anywhere, at any time in history, of any religion, act much the same.

He wasn’t killed by mob violence, he was executed by the State. AN’s claim is that the State was “manipulated” into doing so by those sneaky Jews.

A Red Letter bible, has quite a bit of teaching by Jesus in the four Gospels. However, only the Gospels have any Words of Jesus in the Bible.

The first chapter of Acts records words of Jesus that parallel the post-resurrection appearances in the gospels, along with the vision of Paul on the road to Damascus.

If you take the position that Luke and Acts are really a single work in two volumes, as many scholars of the day do, there are also words attributed to Jesus in the Revelation to John, though these are given as happening in visions rather than “in the flesh” on earth.

Religious leaders with political power demonstrated another problem that can occur when religion tries to get logical. A religious leader sees himself as God’s second in command. He works for God. Anyone who disagrees with him must be working for Satan. Logic gets too binary.

Pilate, the secular politician in that story had misgivings. He chose the easy way out though.

It took another seventeen centuries before the Christian religious politicians where denied political power and brought under control. The world lived through the crusades, the inquisitions, and witch trials before it happened.

Oh, right. And the lesson Christians took from that was a completely abstract message about the dangers of merging political and religious power, which had nothing at all to do with the characteristics of the particular people involved. Or maybe not?

“Saint” John Chrysostom, per Google is “renowned as one of the greatest early Church fathers” and whose “teachings remain central to Christian theology”. Some of those teachings, which remain central to Christian theology, include:

“The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan…they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews, a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition.”

“The Jews have fallen into a condition lower than the vilest animal. Debauchery and drunkenness have brought them to the level of the lusty goat and the pig. They know only one thing: to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to kill, and beat each other up like stage villains and coachmen.”

“The synagogue is a curse, obstinate in her error, she refuses to see or hear, she has deliberately perverted her judgment; she has extinguished with herself the light of the Holy Spirit.”

Chrysostom further said that the Jews had become a degenerate race because of their “odious assassination of Christ for which crime there is no expiation possible, no indulgence, no pardon, and for which they will always be a people without a nation, enduring a servitude without end.”

He elaborated further on God’s punishment of the Jews:

“But it was men, says the Jew, who brought these misfortunes upon us, not God. On the contrary, it was in fact God who brought them about. If you attribute them to men, reflect again that even supposing men had dared, they could not have had the power to accomplish them, unless it had been God’s will…Men would certainly not have made war unless God had permitted them…Is it not obvious that it was because God hated you and rejected you once for all?”

On another occasion Chrysostom is quoted as saying “I hate the Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews.”

And how about that great hero of the Reformation, Martin Luther? How did he conceptualize this philosophical problem of religious leaders holding political power?

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus, we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: “what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord.” Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people’s obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], “You are Peter,” etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (…remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God’s blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

And today, the comforting message of Christian scripture continues to uplift the souls of the devout.

at the anti-Semitic rally in Charlotteville in 2017, posters with John 8:31-47 were seen, as well as the text “Jews are children of Satan,” and the social media profile of the gunman who killed 11 people in the Pittsburgh synagogue in 2018 also featured John 8:44.

Your entire religion, from the very start, has been based on Jew-hatred. The history of Christianity is an unbroken litany of torture, violence, pogroms, Inquisition, slavery and murder. In the words of Rabbi Eliezer Berkovitz:

Christianity’s New Testament has been the most dangerous antisemitic tract in history. Its hatred-charged diatribes against the Pharisees and the Jews have poisoned the hearts and minds of millions and millions of Christians for almost two millennia. Without it Hitler’s Mein Kampf could never have been written’

It’s nice that, in the very recent past, some Christians have repented of anti-semitism, and if they keep it up another few hundred years I might entertain the possibility that they actually mean it. But if, when confronted with this history, your response is to handwave it away, you’re not doing your cause any favors.

(Note: I am well aware that the vast majority of those tortured and murdered by Christians throughout history have not been Jews, but their hatred for us was the toxic seed from which their hatred of the rest of humanity grew)

I do have a question for Christians I’ve always been curious about: how do you deal with Deuteronomy 13:2-6? The basic Christian argument is that we know Jesus is divine because he performed miracles. But here, the Bible clearly states that isn’t a valid argument, even if it were true.

  1. If there appears among you a prophet or a dream-diviner, and he gives you a sign or a portent, 3) saying "Let us follow and worship another god – whom you have not experienced – even if the sign or the portent that he named to you comes true, 4) do not heed the words of that prophet or that dream-diviner. For YHWH your God is testing you to see whether you really love YHWH with all your heart and soul. 5) Follow none but YHWH your God, and revere none but Him; observe His commandments alone, and heed only His orders; worship none but Him, and hold fast to Him. 6) As for that prophet or dream-diviner, he shall be put to death; for he urged disloyalty to YHWH your God…

Jesus wasn’t telling people to worship a new god, is the most likely answer.

The problem for most religious people is that if faith is the defining characteristic of a religion, how do you know which religion is true?

There are people who have complete faith that Christianity is the true religion. But there are also people who have complete faith that Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism is the true religion. So you can’t say that faith alone proves a religion is true.

Agreed. Everything in the New Testament is based on the idea that Jesus is the Son of the God of Israel, and his coming is a fulfillment of various prophecies in the Old Testament. And, Christian teaching about the Holy Trinity indicates that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all part of the same God.

So, that Deuteronomy verse – even if it’s brought up (I’ve honestly not ever seen any discussion of that verse in any church service or religious teaching I’ve experienced) – isn’t going to be seen as relevant in regards to whether or not to believe Jesus.

It’s true he wasn’t explicitly claiming to worship a different God, but according to Christians he did tell people it was OK to disobey God’s laws with regard to such matters as circumcision and eating pork, which is functionally the same thing. See verse 5 above. And of course, to the extent that he claimed to actually BE God, he committed the worst blasphemy imaginable. Hell, even the Golden Calf was presented as being a physical manifestation of YHWH, rather than a new pagan god. That didn’t make it OK.

(I don’t necessarily believe that Jesus was a heretic. He might have been just another rabbi resisting the Roman occupation, and all the messianic crap was made up generations later by the Church Fathers)

Somehow I am not surprised.

Is it? I’ve known a number of Jews who didn’t keep kosher - were they also following a different religion than Judaism?