*Originally posted by MrThompson *
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Can’t say anything about the third, but I’ve read the first two. Case for Christ was about the academic verdict on the historical accuracy of the NT, but by looking at other sources (such as extracts from the rebuttle “Challenging the Verdict”) I’m rather than less than impressed by it, and have to conclude that it’s simply too biased to be of much use. I’m not an expert on these issues, however, so for now I’m trying to put the whole issue to one side.
Case for Christ was much more about simple philisophy, so I do feel that I can appropriately argue with the so-called “experts.” And I can’t say that I was impressed at all - reading it was partly what made me so frustrated that I made this post in the first place. I have to say that the chapter on evil was the worst. It seemed to me to be a very “preaching to the converted” book, and not one that held up to much critical thought.
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I think it was intended as a “preaching to the converted” book. I look at it as a book for “baby christians” - which I still consider myself to be.
One think I like about the Letters from a Skeptic book is the number of times that the writer, a leading pastor, says “I don’t know”. This faith stuff is not about certainty - otherwise it wouldn’t be defined as “faith”. If you’re looking for the God-o-meter or the GPS coordinates for heaven, you won’t find them.
There’s some point, though, where I looked at the evidence, including the evidence inside myself, and decided that this is what fits most closely for me. Somewhere along the way I decided that I am more than the sum of my biology. There’s some “spark” in me that is uniquely me, if you know what I mean. If I call this spark my soul then I have inherently acknowlodged a supernatural world. Now I have to determine the nature of this supernatural world.
I’ve got an engineering degree, I’m a skeptical science type at heart. I have received training in biology, quantum mechanics, astronomy and other hard sciences. I know about atoms, chemistry, electricity. Life, and much of physical reality, is balanced on a knife’s edge. I find too much order for just accident. I see the hand of a divine designer.
That being said, I believe in the evolutionary process. I believe in a 4.5 billion year old earth. I don’t see a conflict with God being at the controls for this universe.
One very important flaw to this argument - heaven. Which apparently is perfect, and all that, which suggests that the robot thing isn’t so bad after all.
Perhaps not. Perhaps the nature of being on earth and beings in heaven is different. I don’t know about this. I like to assume that once presented in heaven with the truth of God, once we’ve transcended the need for faith and have moved to first-hand knowledge, the description of our role in heaven is a natural result.
Even now - as people on earth - we’re encourage to praise God in everything. Perhaps this praise is natural in heaven. That doesn’t mean that we can’t be walking around and also being individuals.
In any case, he could stop any bad thing happening that he likes, but he allows them to continue. (Why does he have to wait till the last day to get rid of the Devil?)
It’s part of the reality of raising a child - in our case a child of God the father. What kind of parent would I be if I gave my kid everything he wanted? What lesson would he learn if I prevented all pain from reaching him. Some lessons are learned through experience - painful, sometimes. Do you want your father to step in on every decision you make, decide if it’s a good one, then allow or disallow based on his experience. Would you rather go into the world and learn on your own?
One description I liked was the comparison to a bear in a trap. Suppose you’re walking through the woods and you find a bear in a trap. His paw is caught and bleeding and he’s howling in pain. You go to help. You imobilize the paw, pry the trap open and he runs away. While you were helping the bear, you caused more pain - you added fear. You twisted the trap and caused more bleeding. You know, because you’re a higher form of life, that this pain was for the bear’s own ultimate good. The bear didn’t understand. He just knows you hurt him. Sometimes, I look at us as the bear. We may not know why everything happens to us - it may cause us pain - but there may be higher good in it.
There may be a reason the Devil is in this world. We may never know what that is until we get a chance to ask all the tough questions in person.
Um… haven’t you just defined what a miracle is? Isn’t the miracle of the resurrection rather central to the Christian faith?
Yes - Direct intervention by God, though, biblically, is rare. Could a miracle occur? Yes. But direct intervention is rare. There are some that say the days of miracles are passed. Perhaps. I think small miracles occur still but for the most part, the world functions according to physical law.
Yes, and if water was thick enough to walk on I doubt we’d still be able to drink it. Somehow Jesus still managed the first.
Yes, but you and I aren’t Jesus. God is not limited by the physical - he can violate the rules when He wants. It’s not like Jesus never sank in water, but he could call on the power when the need arose to break the normal rules.
In the case above it the lack of rain was to help promote an evangelical activity - although I wouldn’t say that my Dad never prays for anything selfish. People often pray for selfish things and apparently God grants it - for example bringing a Christian wife back to good health because the husband prayed for her. Surely she would have preffered it in heaven?
I’m going to heaven - at least I hope I will - but I’m not ready to go, yet. There’s a time and place for everything (A time to live, a time to die, etc.). Perhaps it wasn’t her time. Perhaps God says “yes” to the husband because even selfish prayers are sometimes granted. Above all “His will be done”.
And in my experience Christians tend to forget about those times.
To quote Merlin from Excalibur, “It is the doom of man that they forget.”
And the same ideas could be applied to a birth - but we praise God for the second. Why?
We are limited in our vision to only see our tiny part of the grand plan. We should be thankful for all the good things. We should also be grateful for the strength given in times of bad.
Ah yes, but would she have said the same if a taxi suddenly drove up?
Of course not - but she’d be grateful, I’m sure. Like I said earlier, I think the instances of obvious miracles are few. What if the chariot didn’t arrive but a kind stranger drove up and offered a ride? Would she see the hand of God or a coincidence? It all depends on your point of view. The Atheist sees coincidence, the Christian may see God. I don’t think we can know.
You don’t mean that literally, do you?
No. I don’t mean literally. I do mean, though, that we should pick a quiet moment and “talk” in our heads. Organized thoughts of some sort, not just trusting that God will sort our thoughts and pick out our wishes. He could, of course, and he may do that. I do think, though, that’s it’s important to do something direct rather than indirect every now and then.
I find it difficult to stand with other Christians and pray aloud - pretty common in our church. It’s the “Let’s go around the room and give every body a chance to pray and then Bob will finish up, OK?” I hate that, I feel I’m on display.
I’ve described my prayer as “Faxes to God”. I frequently just think of something and “send it up” right away - just half a sentence or a thought. It’s deliberate like I think prayer should be. I find if I try to organize for an end-of-day prayer all at once I forget and end up resorting to formula - not very genuine.
But she doesn’t know 100% - none of us know anything that well (apart from “I think, therefore I am”, perhaps). God does.
You’re right - I could be lying to my wife when I say “I Love You”. She really doesn’t know for certainty. I hope she knows as much as she knows direct facts. This is a bit of the “grace” versus “deeds” argument that crops up in Christianity every now and then. Grace saves us, but deeds are evidence of change. I hope my wife can look at me and the way I treat her and see that in addition to my words, my actions also show her how I feel.
Thanks, and thanks for answering.
You’re Welcome.
**Unfortunately, for me the foundations are my problem. **
I really understand. Maybe you should know that I have my doubts frequently. I question myself. I realize the illogic of this whole “God thing”. Then I look inside myself and find that spark and realize that I am more than a sack of animated water that found a way to reproduce. I think that believing in a Supreme Being is the best way to reconcile the physical & spiritual parts of my world. Once I decided that God exists, I felt obligated to try to determine his nature and his intents for me. That lead me to where I am now.
There’s a section in the book of Mark, I think, where somebody says, basically, “Yes I believe, God, but can you help me with my disbelief?” I’m not done learning. I’ll probably go to my grave with doubts - I lean on the mercy and grace of God to forgive me for doubting and pray for guidance to reduce the doubt.
I don’t think I’ll every be 100% sure, no doubts, no questions, about the nature of God & Jesus. I envy those that seem to have the level of faith. I also don’t know how truly sure that they really are - they may hide their doubt so to appear more sure - they may be that sure. I don’t know.
I just know about me and I’ll try to do my best. It’s the strength of evidence. To borrow from Strobels book - if you sat on a jury and convicted somebody - could you be sure? No. Unless you were at the scene of the crime you’d be working off of evidence & argument. The evidence from both inside me and outside me has lead me to God & Jesus. I can’t know from first hand knowledge - I wasn’t there - but the evidence is complete enough to make be believe that this is truth.
