Questions for God

HubZilla, you said you wouldn’t mind answers if they were offered. You also seem to recognize that there doesn’t appear to be any objective proof of God; therefore we’re left to depend on subjective proof. It’s then a matter of whether or not you’re willing to accept that instead.

My answers then, or those of anyone else, are only based on opinions formed from subjective proofs and reasoning. That being said, anyone is free to agree or disagree with anyone else’s opinion, or to form their own. So take them as no more than one man’s views.

You first mentioned the desire that God appear to you to prove Himself. If He did, it would be a subjective experience and one which you would find hard to convince others to believe. Also, does He have to appear to you on a great cloud which fills the sky surrounded by millions of angels, or would you accept a more subdued appearance? Perhaps like Moses’ burning bush experience? If you requested a more personalized manifestation, perhaps He would respond.

You next mentioned that you would have a lot of questions to ask in order to determine if He was even worthy of being followed. No problem. God isn’t afraid of questions. In fact He prefers that people follow Him from a basis of informed consent; He isn’t looking for a blind obedience that goes against logic. So keep asking questions until you’re satisfied.

As to why the Bible seems contradictory, that gets at a fundamental issue of what the Scriptures actually are. Just take a look at the other thread currently under discussion in the GD forum, “What’s the most fundamental contradiction in the Bible?”

Let’s start with a hypothetical situation: Mr. A goes to see a movie. He then talks about it to Mr. B and learns that Mr. B has not seen that movie. Mr. A then proceeds to describe the movie to Mr. B as best he can. Of course he is not able to relate everything he has seen, so he tells about the things in the movie with which he identified and understood. Mr. B in hearing Mr. A’s recounting of the movie has some idea of what Mr. A saw, but it is not complete. Mr. B then learns that Mr. C has also seen the same movie. So he has Mr. C tell him about it also. Mr. C’s description is obviously about the same movie, but since Mr. C has a different personality, background, and understanding, he is going to relate different aspects of the movie and the details will be somewhat different. In this hypothetical situation it is easy to see how and why there are differences in the stories of Mr. A and Mr. C even though they’re talking about the same movie. Right?

Now move to the Bible. It is not a single writing by a single author. It is the collected writings of dozens of authors written over many centuries. What is more, it is not the case that God dictates His message while a prophet writes down word for word what is said. Imagine: God, “In the beginning …” Prophet, "Wait, wait. Does beginning have one “g” and two "n"s or is it two “g"s and one “n”?” God, “In the beginning, I …” Prophet, “Wait. When you say “I”, do you mean yourself, God, or “I” as in me the prophet?” It is more like the prophet sees a movie, a vision, then describes it as best he can in his own words. He is, of course, going to be limited by his experience and writing ability. His understanding of the message is also going to be affected by the culture he is from. This helps explain why much of the Bible is male-centered; virtually all of the prophets came from male-dominated societies, so that is the bias with which they related the message they had seen.

Viewed as a recapitulation of a vision they’ve been shown, told in their own words, the discrepancies in the Bible are now understandable as stemming from the limitations of those who are relating the messages. This explains the need for understanding who the messenger was, what his culture was like, and who the message was directed toward primarily. Perhaps you’ve heard biblical scholars talk about this and wondered why it was such a big deal. Well, it affects the understanding of the message.

It also helps one see through the prophet’s limitations and better understand what the message actually is if you are able to compare the writings of more than one prophet on the same subject. You then get a more complete picture because you are seeing it from the perspectives of two or more different people. But this is precisely where the discrepancies stem from: different people’s take on things. The advantages of different slants and highlights can be seen in the four gospel stories of the life of Jesus. By having the views of four different people from diverse backgrounds, you are able to see many more facets of His actual character than if we only had the account of one writer.

This reply is already too long and I’ve only addressed the first third of your OP. So I’ll stop here for now. I can continue later, if you’re interested. But this will give you something to start with.

Why do you change your will in response to prayer? Do you realize how confusing it is when you let one child die and another live, all based on whether or not the proper prayers were offered? We humans are easily impressed by miracles, so please show some consistancy when the urge strikes you. Just punish the wicked and reward the righteous, and quit changing your mind just because some special interest groups have a better lobbyist!!

Where did I put the remote?

YiBaiYuan, what excellent expository skills you have! Welcome to Straight Dope Great Debates.

Why did you take a dump in my good pair of shoes?

Why do you lick your genitals and then lick my face?

Why do you turn over my garbage whenever I turn my back?
Oh…
Wait…
Sorry, I’m dyslexic
:smiley:

Alright then, here are some basic answers.

  1. Because I AM (delivered in tremendously booming voice)!.

  2. Because I have an IQ bigger than your universe.

  3. Because I am not responsible for your really bad decisions.

  4. It would get really, really, annoying if I kept whacking al the naughty people over the head with a ruler. That is the nuns’ job.

That doesn’t really explain why you shit in my shoes, dude.

Hey, if this goes on long enough, it’s going to start involving MrO. And believe me, by the time I heard the story, it had got twisted around so badly, by so many people with so many different agendas, that it probably bore no resemblance to the original. (Assuming that there was an original, an assumption for which I can find no evidence.)

Yes, welcome. You do seem to express yourself quite well. (Were you ever a student in one of my composition classes?) Maybe if God’s expository skills were as advanced, I’d find a way to believe.

This is where I would probably start. HubZilla’s words echo those of Nietzsche’s Zarathustra:

"He was also indistinct. How angry he was with us, this snorter of wrath, because we mistook his meaning! But why did he not speak more clearly?

"And if our ears were to blame, why did he give us ears that were unable to hear him properly? If there was dirt in our ears, very well! Who put it there?

“He had too many failures, this potter who had not learned his craft! But that he took vengeance on his pots and creations because they had turned out badly–that was a sin against good taste.”

Oh, I think His expository skills are rather good, and I’m quite the nitpicker. Here’s one example:

I can’t imagine what, if not that, might satisfy your demands.

My reply to gods basic answers.

Fair enough, but i still haven’t heard a loud booming voice, have you?

Exactly, we’re extremely stupid and you’re not and you dont supply evidence for us to believe, so… Thanks for making all of us stupid btw.

Not believing in you is a really bad decision? You’ve shown me nothing of your existence.

Ya lazy bum, it ain’t the 7th day any more do something… :stuck_out_tongue:

What good is faith?

hate to tell you this, erl, but you’re about 1,970 years late with that line. Your understudy, a guy named Ponchus or something like that, already delivered it! :wink:

Well, a few answers from the viewpoint of Orthodox Judaism:

Because it is concise. If you take the time to study it in depth, you’d realize that every word, every letter is measured for precision and necessity, and the apparent contradictions that a surface reading yields become a way of conveying a point in the most efficient way possible.

Because human beings have passions, temptations and inertia which makes them either twist the message for their own purposes, not study it beyond a surface reading, or ignore it entirely.

Only one of them can back up their beliefs with my word; the others claim their own words to be my word. Within my word, there are no contradictions (see above).

Sheesh; this one is a bit bigger than I’m willing to address in this thread. Suffice it to say that there are entire sections of the Bible devoted to such matters (Jeremiah chapter 12 is one of the best examples) and the bottom line is that contemplating the precise details of divine judgment is a task that is way above human heads. There are books which paint, in broad strokes, some general principles that are gleaned from the Biblical scholarship on this issue, but it’s kind of like quantum mechanics…you try to apply those to specific cases which bother you, but, like the behavior of individual atoms can’t be predicted, the judgment of specific individuals can’t necessarily be fully understood, and it still leaves querents like yourself unsatisfied.

G-d is not inactive in the world, and one should indeed bother to ask for help and good things. These are not “more worthy” than stopping a masscre…the massacre is one of those things that you do not understand why G-d did them (see above).

You do not need to surrender logic for faith. G-d revealed himself plenty of times in the past - granted it was thousands of years ago, but those who saw it recorded the event faithfully and passed it down to their children and children’s children all the way up to the present generation. If you wish to believe that these people were all lying or delusional, is that G-d’s fault? G-d created an orderly universe and a life-filled Earth with complex ecologies; if you choose to believe this to be a product of spontaneous generation, random mutation and natural selection, is that G-d’s fault? The pieces fit together well enough that it’s hardly a huge leap of faith or a denial of logic to posit a designer and creator.

Well, that’s not something Orthodox Jews believe G-d does anyway.

Prehistoric? Funny, it seems like recorded history to me. As for why them…well, they (or, more specifically, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) chose G-d, and he reciprocated. Anyone who wishes to follow their path is welcomed as one of my “chosen people,” the door was never closed to others.

Why Israel? I like it. As for this bit about massacring other humans, well, see above about that divine justice thing.

The questions of yours that followed that seem directed specifically at Christians, so suffice it to say that none of the beliefs they are based on are true in my opinion.

Chaim Mattis Keller

I always knew I was born in the wrong time, Poly! :slight_smile:

atheist == person that BELIEVES that there is no God

agnostic == person that doesn’t know whether or not there is a God

apatheist == person that doesn’t know and doesn’t give a damn whether or not there is a God

i decided that atheism was totally illogical because even if there is no God noone could come up with evidence for the fact. this is of course largely because the believers can’t come up with a very concrete definition of God. but the atheists still don’t have a heavenly leg to stand on.

so i became an agnostic by default.

13 years in catholic schools can piss one off occasionally so this drove me into the apatheist camp sometimes, but atheism was still to extreme.

what explanation do atheists have for religion however? they kind of imply it just evolved from superstition usually. doesn’t religion seem a bit to complex for that explanation? what are ghosts? is that all junk people make up? i have met 6 people who have told me they have had experiences with ghosts/spirits. i have experimented with so called telepathy and twice have heard voices i know weren’t mine. i have been reading about the occult for 20+ years and will concede that most of it is bullshit. it is like George Harrison said, “searching for the truth among the lying.” i think very strange things are going on and most religions a just corruptions of the facts. keeping the ignorant confused to rip them off. i see that in the computer biz all the time.

OLD SOULS by Tom Shroder is the best single book i have seen at showing reality is stranger than fiction.

Dal Timgar

An impressive testimony, Dal. Thank you, and God go with you.

You don’t really care if I wear jeans to church, do you?

What’s your endgame here?

Where ya’ been lately? With the wacky guys on streetcorners, or lying low?

Could you get your staff to keep it in their vestements, if you know what I’m saying?

You don’t really care if I wear jeans to church, do you?

What’s your endgame here?

Where ya’ been lately? With the wacky guys on streetcorners, or lying low?

Could you get your staff to keep it in their vestements, if you know what I’m saying?

Libertarian: Thank you for the welcome.

Mr. O: Thanks to you as well. No, I was never in your class. Regarding the example, you mention that by the time the story gets to Mr. O it will be quite changed from the original. Granted. The story of Mr. A and Mr. C telling different versions of the movie to Mr. B was to explain discrepancies between two original stories. It is a different matter when you discuss retellings and translations of original stories. But both of these situations – discrepancies and deviations – are precisely why it is important for each individual to have their own experience with God. Hence the superiority of the subjective over the objective where matters of personal belief are concerned. The writings of others about what they’ve learned should only serve as a guide to others seeking a similar experience, not be an end in themselves.

Cmkeller: You did a great job of addressing the middle third of the OP. As you mentioned, there is much more to be said, but only a limited space in this forum. The collected writings on these questions would fill a library. So it’s impossible for there to be a complete answer here.

As for which religion is right, however, all the major religions have both truth and error in their doctrines. Only the proportions of each vary from one religion to another. (And the question of which has what percent would start a whole new thread.) However, I don’t think there is any religion that has 100% truth and 0% error. Nevertheless, even with their flaws organized religions are not without their value. (But that, too, is another thread.)

BTW, is HubZilla still monitoring this thread?

I Corinthians chapter 13 is quite good. Would that the rest of the book were consistent with the kind-hearted “Love Chapter.” In my classes, a student doesn’t get an A for writing a confusing, contradictory essay with a few good lines. I still say that as a communicator, God has not done a great job.