Why the Christian God?

Great Debates
1

and not the belief systems of Islam, Buddhism, Hindu, the Book of Mormon, or any other? Why not the Olympians? Or John C’s God of Sticking Your Extremities …? And while we are at it, why Catholic instead of Protestant? And why Lutheran instead of Methodist?

If you believe you perceive the existence of a suprenme being, how do you choose which version you will worship? How extensive was your search before ending up in the church you now identify with?

And if you believe you will continue to exist in some way after your corporeal death, what do you believe happens to people of different faiths after death?

For those churchgoers out there, what is more important to you, the specific theology professed by your chosen faith, or the sense of community extended by your congregation? For example, assume the neighborhood Lutheran church strikes you as a friendly place, and the Presbyterians seem to be jerks. But you always considered yourself Presby. What do you do?

2

Here’s my take, and it’s pretty hard to dispute: Everyone has their own religion. (Those who are athiests wouldn’t really call it a religion, but you know what I mean.) For the record, I classify myself as a Presbyterian. (Christian protestant for those out of the loop). I believe in God, Christ, the forgiveness of sin, etc. I believe in the bible. Mostly. I say that mostly because I view the bible as a truthful book, but I also view for what it is…a two to five-thousand year old book. I don’t take a literal interpretation of the bible in a lot of instances…particularly about the creation. I believe the early books of the old testament are primarily metaphorical in nature. I believe in the big bang, in evolution, and in science in general, but I still believe in God. Basically, I view everything that we find out through science to be essentially the way God decided to make things happen. Some people are like me, some aren’t. I grew up in a Presbyterian household, which is why I associate with that group, but I could just as easily be Methodist…etc. Basically, my views on religion are roughly the same as the Presbyterian church…but not everything.

I think most people choose what religion to follow by either

a) blindly following what is shown to them. or

b) reasoning things out, and deciding what they believe, then going to the church, temple, synagogue, etc. that most resembles their way of thought.

I for one think that the notion of having to confess sins to a priest is rediculous…thus I’m not Catholic. I believe in the divinity of JC, so I’m not Jewish. My friend was raised as a Catholic, and in the middle of high school realized that she believed in God, but found the whole Jesus thing hard to swallow, so she converted to Judaism. She started reading up on that faith, realized it was pretty much her thing, went to a Rabbi to talk about it, and then officially decided she was Jewish. That’s the way it is for her, me, and for others I’ve seen, anyway. I’d say practically no one believes absolutely EVERYTHING the ‘church’ believes and nothing else…everyone has their slightly different beliefs, therefore making each person have their own, personalized, religion.

Jman

3

That is exactly the problem and why I don’t go to church. I was raised Baptist, attended Methodist church occasionally (Mom liked their choir) and Pentacostal (now called Church of God, I think, or Assemblies of God). I just don’t go. I certainly don’t go now that I have found out that the Bible is not the only religous writing available that addresses the life and teachings of Jesus. It just happens to be the only writings a bunch of dead guys in the 4th century decided they wanted everyone to see. I also do not go because of the climate of intolerance that I have noticed developing in churches more and more in the past 10 years. Being a woman, I refuse to sit down in so called fellowship with people who are so easily led to believe that women should not be afforded control over their own spirituality. I just do not think this has anything to do with what Jesus was trying to tell people, on the contrary. I believe that he was trying to do just the opposite. Allow everyone the wonder, peace and joy that can be found through their own personal experience with God. But like in every other aspect of our lives men down the through the ages have contrived to control women and other men even if it meant that they had to rewrite and corrupt the word of God himself.

Needs2know

4

I was born and raised into the LDS religion. However, neither of my parents are practicing members. My Grandparents are, but they don’t have too much control over my life. So after I turned 12 or 13 and I started attending Seminary (My Choice) and Church (Again My Choice) I asked myself if it’s what I wanted. I compiled a list of questions I had about religion, God, etc etc. Then I looked for answers. I found all the answers to my questions, and what’s more, to me they seemed logical.
I’m not a practicing Mormon right now, but I still believe in all the doctrine and principals of the religion, and would always consider myself a Mormon above all else.
I’m turned off to many other religions because SOME Christians are very intolerant. And SOME are very judgemental, (A good friend of mine as informed me that I am going to hell and there’s nothing I can do about it.) It also seems that most are very hypocritical. I also don’t feel comfortable with some of the direct interpertations of the Bible as FACT. I have a hard time swallowing the fact that God created the Earth in 6 days. I don’t think Moses parted the Red Sea. Things like that. It’s one thing to believe in the principals of the Bible, love, kindness, forgivness, but it’s quite another to interpret every story as literal fact. The Council of Nicea decided what we would all read, the order of the books, and what would or would not be included. They were just men. Not God Himself. If I wasn’t Mormon I’d probably be agnostic with Christian tendencies, at the very most.

5

I was raised Catholic, then my mom went the born-again non-denominational Christian way and ended going to Pentecostal type churches up until about a year ago. Certain things bothered me (as well as many people’s attitudes) and so I started doing research into the Christian church, mainly the pentecostal movement. It snowballed after that, and I went back to the supposed roots of Christianity in Judaism. I concluded that man really f’d up all the teachings of Jesus but believe in the God of the OT, mainly because the big 3 religions are pretty much based in these teachings and it seems the most logical to me, although I lean towards Judaism. I like reading others ideas and tend to get worked up, but I like being made to think about things rather than regurgitate others ideas. My mind still isn’t made up about that. But . . .

I look around at the beauty and splendor of the universe and just can’t see it happening by chance. I go along the lines of “everything created must have a creator” and marvel at all the laws of nature, the uniformity of it all but yet with all the chaos. How it happened is inconsequential to me, I’m just glad it did and want to live my life the best I can.

6

After having been raised in the United Church of Canada (a fairly liberal protestant denomination), I chose to convert to Wicca. The theology/thealogy and worldview struck me as being much more in tune with what I believed. I read The Spiral Dance and found myself going “you know, that’s what I already believe” on each page.

In the form I believe, Wicca is an animist rather than a dualist religion. That is to say, our gods do not run the universe; they are the universe. That’s why I have faith in my gods: I see them every time I open my eyes and look at anything real.

Secondly, the ethical structure is not a battle of opposites. The polarized battle of opposites to be found in monotheistic religions is destructive, because it maps good vs. evil, God vs. Satan, Christ vs. antiChrist, etc., onto all other dual pairs: spirit vs. body, chastity vs. sex, man vs. woman, white vs. black, conformity vs. deviance, yankee vs. commie… in other words, all us vs. them. The desire is The One Right, True, and Just Way - Ours!! - and then follow it. I find that kind of world-view simplistic and immature; a denial of complexity. Instead, I use a humanistic process of reflection, doubt, and balance to embrace complexity rather than deny and cancel it.

7

Yes why one religion/God and not another? Maybe because of the multi-faceted development of religion from shamanism to the enormous (but divided) institutions that exist today. It seems blindingly obvious that none of them can be “right” about the ultimate nature of the God-head and his realation to us. However, they are all approaching the same subject from different pov’s, and thus each has realized some aspect of the “truth”.

I am not drawn to religion myself (its just philosophy gone bad), but I fully appreciate the philosophies of Christ, Siddhartha, Confucious and Lao Tzu. Each of them has a unique and beautiful view of how we should live, but imho; Christ is too mystical, I disagree with Buddha that suffering is caused by desires and Confucious although excellent is too this-worldly. And so i find great spiritual wealth in Daoism more than anywhere else. Strangely, once you begin to understand it, Daoism is the least mystical of all philosophies and I find that it is the only pov from which the truth in other systems of belief is not excluded.

Just a collection of my opinions, its not my intention to dis other peoples beliefs; just to point out how the core of religion is philosophy, which has become obscured in most religions through the years.

8

I truly believe that Christianity is the only Logical Religion. I know that flies in the face of what many people say and believe today, but it isn’t hard to prove.

In many ways, there are only two religions in the world: Christianity and everything else.

The “everything else” religion says some variation of the following: “You are basically a good person,” or “You can become a good person”, or “You are God”, or “You are like God”, or “You can become God”, or something that basically states the belief that man is basically good and/or can become good or better himself on his own in some form or fashion.

The Christian religion teaches the exact opposite. Read Romans 3 for a sampling. It teaches that there is NO SUCH THING as a “good person”, and that mankind has NO HOPE in and of himself to improve himself in any way shape or form. The Christian religion teaches that there is only ONE hope to improve your life, and that is to let Jesus Christ take over your life. Let HIM run it, and your life can improve dramatically.

Another distinction. Every religion teaches that there is a God. God is obviously both good and just. As one friend of mine said (who is a Muslim), “OF COURSE! He wouldn’t be God otherwise.” Every religion would agree that God is good and just. But then that leaves a HUGE gaping problem. How does a sinful, IMPERFECT man get into the presence of a holy, perfect God on his own?

NO other religion can solve that problem. I was in a roomful of Muslims once in the summer of 1994. They were all very polite and I asked them at one point, “So do you believe God is good and loving?” They kind of gave the old “Of course”. I then asked, “Do you believe that God is just?” Again, “of course”. I then asked, “You agree that man is not perfect?” Again, agreeement. So then I asked, “So how does your religion solve this problem?”

I sincerely felt sorry for the guy who was sorta the spokesperson for the group. He stumbled and stumbled because there wasn’t an answer in his religion. There isn’t an answer in ANY religion … except Christianity.

Christianity’s answer is … God was literally in agony over this issue. He knew He couldn’t deny the part of Him that LOVED everyone and didn’t want to punish people. But He also couldn’t deny his JUSTICE. We are all guilty of sin and DESERVE punishment. The solution: Jesus offered himself to be punished in our place. He was the only perfect man who ever walked the face of the earth, and he received the full wrath of God … the full punishment for the sins I committed.

Now the ball is in my court. All I have to do is give up control of my life and receive His totally free gift of forgivenenss. It’s pretty amazing, and totally logical.

So is the boat fully rocking yet? :slight_smile: Sincerely, I hope that I gave you guys some food for thought.

9

Gee, we’ve never had anybody present it to us like that before!
And your story about the group of Muslims? Next time, why don’t you tell us about you believe about a subject, instead of re-writing Chick Tracts with you as the Christian “hero”.

10

ok, that was a bit off Friend, you are allowed to believe, no one can take that away from you, but don’t go claiming false truths about “other” religions, especially when you don’t know what you are talking about. No one is telling you your way is wrong, or your beliefs are wrong, the OP is asking why you chose what you chose, and how extensive was your search and research to reach that point.

as for why i chose what i’ve chosen, and how, i’m in agreement with papertiger on most of what he’s said. I respect the principles and teachings of all mentioned. But i cannot in any way believe in what i cannont see or feel either. Perhapse that brings me closer to atheism, but i’m not an atheist. I’m a Jew by birth, and was raised and taught Judaism until i was 17. I found Buddhism then, and studied that as well, then i felt myself move over into Buddhism with strong feelings for it becuase i felt it was more logical then anything else i’ve learned. I learned that Christianity was full of hipocrisy and lies from the top to bottom in that the ministers of the faith from priest to pope, (not necessarily Catholicism, but all of Christianity), hid stuff from their congregation, or felt that all the mistranslation of the bible and Torah was inconsequential. I felt the same way about Judaism except that i felt it was also more of a culture then a simple religion, and that it just wasn’t really for me either. Buddhism taught the principles i felt i had already believed in, (here’s where i disagree with papertiger) especially that suffering comes from craving and desire. Perhaps it has to do with my interpretation. I feel that Siddhartha meant having attachments, and the desire was an attachment. I agree whole heartedly with the Taoist (Daoist) beliefs as well, only i’ve found myself moving what i consider a whole new level into a practice rather than a religion. All i believe in now is me. I no longer worship anything or anyone, not that i necessarily have, but i practice Falun Dafa. As a practitioner, i find myself happier, more content, and satisfied with life in itself, and find everything to make more sense and be logical. You might say Falun Dafa is less mystical then even Taoism. It’s very practical, and still spiritual and healthy physically. Again, it’s not a religion (so far technically) but a practice.
So, saying all that, my answer to the OP is, i chose what i chose for practical and logical reasons. What’s real, what i can see and feel. There is no god for me to believe in, there are no dieties in the sense the pagans or Hindu or Buddhist explain. There is more of the Tao in it, yet more of ME in it than anything.

11

I like to call myself nondenominational Christian. I’m not evangelical. I don’t think “Jesus is awesome!” in that way that just annoys a lot of people. I CERTAINLY don’t wear clothes with Jesus on them, because that cheapens it beyond recognition. And I take almost none of the Bible to be literal truth. Though I do think Jesus was a cool guy with some great ideas who, yes, was a sort of God-incarnate.
But do I think He was the only manifestation of God this world has seen? No. That would be grossly unfair to, oh, half the world’s population. Jesus came because the Jews were ready for a religious awakening, and that awakening HAD to come in the form of a Messiah. It’s what they had wanted for 4,000 years.
It came to others in different ways. Muhammad, Buddha, etc. All of them had something special in them that made them more than human. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that so many cultures switched from a pantheon of Gods to either monotheism or another radically different philosophy in such a relatively short time span.
I only go to Church for funerals and weddings now, though, if my future wife has no serious objections, I plan to be married in a Catholic Church. Why? Because that’s what I’m comfortable with. I want God to bless my union in a way I can understand and feel some attachment to.
I originally stopped going to church cause our parish pastor was corrupt. But now I have a different reason. God is a perfect being. A perfect being would not be so selfish as to demand that I worship Him/Her once a week to stay in their good graces. And they certainly wouldn’t send me to hell. I believe people who have been bad, after death, somehow have to work off their sins in some way, the more sins the more work (not labor, but some metaphysical charity work). Then it’s a party for all eternity.

12

And this thread just goes to show that “logic” is different to all people. Additionally, the importance of logic differs from person to person. I find Christianity an extremely illogical religion, but that’s not important, really. I’m not Jewish because it’s so LOGICAL. That’s what we call faith, you know? I think Buddhism is a great deal more logical than Judaism, and for a while, I was atracted to it for that reason, but eventually found it to be too cold and almost inhuman for me. I mean, the idea is to shed all your wants and needs of humanity as you gain wisdom, and I like being human! To say the only one religion is logical is extremely close-minded, and IMO, misses the point entirely.

Love to all,

Kyla

13

Jman’s response is on target. But I would put it slightly differently (as I did in a different thread): Every religion has just one true believer.

I think the process described in the OP has it backwards. The idea isn’t to do an extensive search of all the religions out there and find one that you fit into. Rather, the idea is to develop a personal ‘religion’ that fits you.

One good way to accomplish the latter is to dive in and begin thinking about spiritual things within the framework of some organized religion. You get the benefit of the insights of centuries of thoughts that other people have had.

Eventually, many people discover that the organized religion they grew up with doesn’t exactly reflect what they believe. But that’s normal. Organized religion is just a sort of spiritual grade school. If you keep studying, you graduate to something else.

That doesn’t mean you leave the church. It just means all of the customs and sacraments indigent to that church have special meaning to you, because they have been rungs on your ladder of personal growth.

If you talk with spiritually advanced people, people who have been clergy or buddhist monks or whatever for decades, people who are old and close to death, you find that they have a lot more in common spiritually than their disparate backgrounds might suggest.

Nobody should feel bad about having joined a church without benefit of an exhautive knowledge of world faiths.

14

I like that, Boog. Every religion has just one true believer. That’s a perfect way to put it. I’ll start using that one. :slight_smile:

Jman

15

It seems to me that overall what’s been lacking here is the concept of Truth. The general theme of what people have said is that they choose the religion that makes the most sense to them. “I believe in X religion because it agrees with my beliefs.”

That just doesn’t make much sense to me. The idea of a personal religion is even more odd. Personal Philosophy, I can see, a chosen way on what precepts to follow in life based on personal world view. But to declare what Reality is based on personal opinion? Assuming there is a god(s), what on earth (or elsewhere) does that have to do with what you personally believe? I’ve heard many times “God has to be like X.” But why? “I left X religion because I couldn’t agree with their stance on Z.” Why do you get to be the judge? Maybe God really does hate homosexuals, think women are inferior, or maybe She doesn’t care who sleeps with whom or thinks mice are really Her special creatures. If there is a God, then His/Her opinions are the ruling ones, and our debates and disagreements are really meaningless. How come I never hear “*I disagree with most of what this religion teaches, but it’s True anyway and there’s nothing I can do about it.” A god really doesn’t need humanity’s approval on anything.

And that is why I’m agnostic. I’ve seen no compelling evidence for the Truth of any religion. I accept that I could be wrong, and that I’ve misinterpreted the evidence, but that’s the basis of my beliefs, not whether or not a religion agrees with my philosophies.

pinqy

16

i like that Boog, but for the most part, i think that thousands of years of philosophy and playing with belief systems has turned out the ones that fit humans for the most part. I agree with your statement about it being like grade school in a way, which is sort of why i made the decision i made, but i disagree that everyone creates their own religion. I believe you can develop your own faith however you like, but you can’t create a religion. That takes a few more people and some organisation, in which case you’re just creating a new grade school for others to drop out of later on… but as for the self faith, the finding for yourself what you like to believe, what you believe will bring to you the truth, or show you the truth, that i agree with. That’s why i practice Falun Dafa, it has shown me more truth than anything, it is not a religion, it is a practice in which i can fit my beleifs how i will. It borrows from religions and belief systems, but does not of itself make one. Yeah pinqy, truth. That’s about what i think everyone’s after in a way.

17

The reason (almost) no one believes exactly what the church spews is because we are human…we think for ourselves. To blindly follow a religion because the “church” says so is to give up free will. Religion is based on belief…if you follow a religion to the letter, but don’t believe certain parts the church teaches, what are you supposed to do? Say…no…don’t believe that. Since religion is based on FAITH and not facts, there’s reason to believe that we don’t know everything that God wants or says…the bible is a holy book, yes, but it was written by normal men 2000-5000 years ago…there’s bound to be scientific simplification and translation errors. The church really doesn’t like to admit that, but I believe that’s the truth. The church would have me believe that God created the world in 6 earth days. (my church really doesn’t stand firm on this…one reason I like them). But I see that as a way for God to explain to men at the time how creation started. If God had told Moses (author of Genesis) that the world was created over billions of years, initially starting out with a pin head sized ball of everything in the world, then exploded, with gravitational forces coelescing the dust to form planets and stars…Moses would have said…“huh?” Without the science in their society, there’s no way to explain it. I view the creation of man the same way…it’s all metaphorical. Anyway, that’s my view.

Jman

18

slythe said:
“Gee, we’ve never had anybody present it to us like that before! And your story about the group of Muslims? Next time, why don’t you tell us about you believe about a subject, instead of re-writing Chick Tracts with you as the Christian “hero”.”

So I take it from your sarcasm that you’ve, ah, HEARD some of this stuff on this board before? Please realize I’ve been here 4 days total so I’m not aware of what has or hasn’t happened in previous months (except for the famous LBMB debacle).

As for your other comment, you are pretty much accusing me of lying, or at least it appears that way. Considering that you’ve never met me and I’ve been on this board less than a week, why do you feel so certain that I’m making up a story? What track record of mine are you basing this on?

I did see some “Chick” tracts in the late 80s, but I don’t ever recall seeing one with a story like the one that happened to me. As I said, it happened in the summer of 1994 in Marietta, GA. I was teamed with two other people from my church, and we were one of several teams going through the neighborhood.

We were basically giving people the chance to hear the gospel if they’d never heard it. Over 75% of the people weren’t interested but it was worth it for those that were intereseted. I’ll admit that the Muslim encounter was the most dramatic visit we had all summer long, or in fact ANY summer that we went out. That’s why it sticks out in my mind so much. I opened the door and saw one guy. He was nice and invited us in, and then we looked around and saw 6 or 7 other guys, who also were very friendly. Then the encounter went from there.

Anyway, if you choose not to belive me, that’s your choice, but I don’t appreciate it since you have no reason not to.

19

All other religions are about man trying to reach God. Christianity is about God reaching down to man. Let me give you an example. Let’s put this in a modern situation by that all one had to do to get to heaven was jump and touch the moon without any help. Many failed to make it. So one day God sent a rocket to help those who were willing to make it to the moon. However this rocket demanded a lot. It required leaving one’s old life. Some agreed and boarded, but others said that they would find another way or make it on their own. Impossible? Exactly. Without Christ (the rocketship in the illustration) it is impossible to reach God.

20

The Norse religion certainly didn’t teach that. Valhalla was obtained by death in battle if Odin wanted you to fight in Raganork. Being “good” or “god-like” had nothing to do with it. Some forms of Buddhism and Taoism don’t acknowledge gods at all, and the concepts used of “goodness” aren’t quite what you’re talking about. Additionally, Christianity could still be counted as “you can become a good person” or that people can “better themselves.” In fact you said it yourself “let Jesus Christ take over your life. Let HIM run it, and your life can improve dramatically.” The first step of the process you’re describing is to do something to better yourself and become a better person by letting Jesus into your life. After that presumably you will be a good person.

Not a distinction. As I pointed out not all religions teach that there is a god (I should add pantheism, too). And Deism doesn’t deal witha good or just god. And Greek/Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Babylonian (to name a few) gods and goddesses were not considered “both good and just.” Some of the gods were distinctly unsavoury, and even from the “good” ones, their actions were not always just. For current religions, not all Hindu gods are good and just, and there are different aspects of Goddess worship, not all of which are pleasant. I won’t even get into quotes from the OT that question the standards by which the Christian God could be considered good and just.

Ditto