Why have you chosen the religion that you believe? Do all the different religions which believe different things ever make you wonder if your religions set of beliefs are the “right” ones to follow? And I don’t just mean different denominations of Christianity, I mean Judaism vs. Christianity vs. Jainism vs. Santeria vs. on and on and on.
If you believe that all religions are basically a path to the same god, why bother with organized religion at all? Why not disassociate yourself with any particular “label” and just worship on your own terms?
In a very real sense, I didn’t choose my religion - it chose me. In fact, I definitely would not have chosen this religion on logic alone. But certain experiences brought me to a belief.
I was raised in a Christian religion, but left it because the doctrines they taught seemed contradictory (no offense to anyone who believes in it, but the biggest offender for me was the Trinity).
For several years I was what I later recognized as a Deist - I believed there was a God, but that he had simply set everything up at the beginning and rarely if ever interfered.
Then I began to feel as though something were missing from my life, and eventually realized it was God. I began to look at other religions. Since I had been raised a Christian, I looked at Christian religions first. I also got around to checking out Islam, which I found very attractive.
Then I had an experience which convinced me that there was a personal God, and I joined my current church. (I don’t think it’s relevant to this discussion what church it is, but if anyone really wants to know, email me and I’ll tell you.)
It is a Christian church (can the term ‘church’ even be properly applied to other religions?), but I find it much more satisfying than the one I was born in. Do you absolutely need to belong to this church to get into heaven? No. People who never even hear of Jesus Christ before their death can still get into heaven. You will be judged more on how you live than what you believe (Jesus himself concentrated on behavior not doctrine). As someone said on another thread, there will be a lot of surprised atheists in heaven and a lot disappointed fundamentalists in hell. Not that I believe in the traditional heaven and hell, with the angels and the harps and the fire and the brimstone. For me, heaven is being eternally in the presence of God, whereas hell is being eternally separated from him.
I don’t think they are different paths to the same god. For example, the three Abrahamic religions don’t follow the others on Jesus:
The New Testament says: Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
(John 14:6)
The Torah says: God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
(Numbers 23:19)
Finally, the Q’uran says: The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than Allah’s apostle and His Word which He cast to Mary: a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles and do not say: “Three.” Forbear, and it shall be better for you. Allah is but one God. Allah forbid that He should have a son! His is all that the heavens and the earth contain. Allah is the all-sufficient Protector.
(Sura 4:171)
I am a Christian because I was raised as a Christian. If I had been born in a different culture, I am sure I would be just as devout a member of whatever the religion of that culture was.
I remain a Christian because I am familiar with the teachings of Christianity. They give me a framework for my ethics, and a handy collection of stories to use to impress proper social behaviour on my children. The Church gives me a social group within my community who share many of my attitudes towards proper behaviour.
There probably exists an organized religion whose dogma more closely approximates what I understand to be the relationship of God and Man. There probably also exists a language other than English which is better suited for expressing my thoughts. At my age I cannot justify the effort I would need to expend to learn a new way of doing things.
That’s exactly what I did. Later, I found some descriptions of various theological thought processes and partially semi-sort of adopted those (Wicca, Gnosticism) but only in a loose and very unorthodox sense. And only because sometimes it’s shorter than explaining my own when the differences don’t matter that much.
[ul]**
[li]Because it provides a way to test my beliefs.[/li][li]Because organized religion is social as well as religious.[/li][li]Because I like ritual and I can’t stand my own singing.[/li][/ul]**
First, I’m an atheist. If that means I shouldn’t be responding at such length to a thread directed at non-atheists, I apologize. I also apologize if it seems like I’m attacking DrFidelius by taking apart so much of this post. It’s just that it’s such a clear, concise expression of everything that baffles me about Christianity, I feel I’ve stumbled across someone who might be able to help me understand better.
Okay, fair enough. But that sounds like a lot like what Ivan Stang once said: “You need a carton of salvation, you go to the nearest convenience store.” Isn’t it a little embarrassing to admit that?
Oooh, this scares me. Never would I tell anyone else how to raise his or her children, but an aphorism of Arthur Schopenhauer comes to mind: “There is no absurdity so palpable that it may not be firmly planted in every human mind, if you only begin to inculcate it before the age of five by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity.” Yes, it impresses social behavior on children. Whether it is proper to do that by way of parables that might be taken literally, especially if presented as literal, is another question. It certainly screwed me up for the first 30 years of my life.
I agree that it gives you a social group, and one does fit in better in American society if one is at least nominally a Christian.
If your religion really is just a convenient way of keeping yourself out of trouble and teaching your kids right from wrong, I guess I have no problem with settling so easily for whatever religion you happened to be born into. But it seems to me that if God is real, then it’s worth looking into getting the right version of the story. Especially as the years gather.
I really don’t mean these questions as an attack, it just seems odd to me that some Christians seem so lackadaisical about the whole thing. If I believed half of what most Christians believe, I would take it twice as seriously. If it’s just a social club, I could find a better one.
I mentioned a similar query in another thread. Was that the inspiration for this one? It doesn’t really matter, but it does lead me to want to ask my own question, in a similar vein.
First, this was my quote:
My question is, how do you defend your religion in light of all the others? If you are that devout in your beliefs, you must consider all other religions to be bogus. Is this not the case?
Maybe that’s my biggest beef with religion. I like to consider all things. The acceptance of any one, mandates the exclusion of others.
I “chose” to be an Orthodox Jew initially because that’s what my parents are and that’s what I’d been raised from infancy to be.
I choose not to walk away from that because I’ve been taught the difference between my religion and the other religions (granted, not by an un-biased source, but even so) and based on those teachings, it seems to me that mine has more truth behind it than any other.
And yes, Jack Batty, believing in one religion does pretty much mean you think the others are false. But what is religion if not a search for the truth? And once one believes he has found the truth, what is wrong with rejecting that which is false?
Firstly, the word ‘religion’ is a difficult one for me handle in the sense that I tend to associate it with dogma, mechanics and process… ritual even.
I’m a Christian and for me that’s about my personal relationship with Christ. Whilst I associate with other Christians and attend a church, it’s all about that personal relationship. Religion is just the wrong word… even Jesus Christ despised religion.
I’d like to think that I don’t try to defend my Christianity (difficult sometimes) as I know only too well that I’ll never persuade anyone to Christ myself.
I do seek opportunities though to explain my faith to others when asked and to answer any questions about my faith as honestly as I can.
I pray that others may ‘see the light’ and in the way that I did and that my words and deeds may plant seeds that the individual can accept & nurture (or reject).
I do not consider other beliefs to be bogus. To their custodians, they are as real as my faith is to me. However, from a Christain perspective, all non-Christians are ‘lost sheep’, whatever their persuasion. And so I pray for their salvation rather than judge them or condemn them. I also respect their choice, borne out of freewill… however misguided it may be from a Christian’s standpoint.
Interesting definition. My definition of intolerance always was an unwillingness to entertain other points of view…not a willingness to discard those already entertained and determined (in one’s mind) to be false, or at least, less likely true.
“intolerance – (unwillingness to recognize and respect differences in opinions or beliefs)” - from this page
While I consider those who are devoutly religious to be misguided, I tolerate them, and I tolerate their right to hold their beliefs. In fact I thrive on the differences inherent in my fellow humans. It’s what I find makes the world interesting. And as far as “religious beliefs” go, it is imperative to me that I hear some of it all before I make up my own mind.
cmkeller, allow me to assume you are a Christian. Do you tolerate the Muslims of the world? The Shinto-ists? The atheists? Even though you “know” they are wrong? If so, how does that jive with your previous post of “discard[ing] those [points of view] already entertained and determined (in one’s mind) to be false”. Or is it the same as what walor said - they are all lost sheep?
He is also a very bright, well versed, repectful person. He has spent some considerable time at another (in this case, Christian) message board, solely for the purpose of helping to educate them as to the beliefs and practices of Judaism.
You might (or might not, I don’t know) be surprised to find out how considerate and respectful and generally non judgmental he is towards Gentiles.
Jack Batty, it is possible to believe in one spiritual path without invalidating the others. Perhaps I can use an analogy to explain my viewpoint?
If I witness an accident while standing on the north sidewalk of a street, I will have one view of events. If you are standing on the south sidewalk, you will have a different view. The people in each vehicle will have a different viewpoint, and so on. This doesn’t mean that what I alone saw was wrong - nor should I assert that only the north side is the true side. As a matter of fact, by discussion with all the observers, we may learn more about what truly took place.
I don’t look at other religions as false - the people involved see what they see. Who am I to try and drag them onto my sidewalk? So, no - belief does not automatically invalidate other religions.
'fraid I can’t do that. In fact, my declaration of myself as an Orthodox Jew appears earlier in this very thread(thanks, though, Mars Horizon, for repeating it).
Well, I respect their right to maintain their point of view and have their opinions, even though I disagree with them.
Depends on what you (or walor) mean by “lost.” Orthodox Jews like myself do not believe that all non-Jews are condemned to an unpleasant afterlife. But I certainly think that the world-view they maintain is a mistaken one.
<#include disclaimer.h>
// I am not Dr. Fidelius, and cannot speak for him
// However, I understand where he’s coming from and will try to address MrO’s questions
Why embarrassing? Is it embarrassing as an American (or Canadian/Brit/Ozzie/Kiwi/whatever) to speak English? To know the words to the national anthem (whichever that might be)? I’m an American because I was raised as an American. Had I been raised as a Canadian, I’d be a Canadian.
Oops, hang on now. Upon preview (which, might I add, is my friend), I think I might see what you’re asking. You said:
In other words, “How can one be so seemingly cavalier about one’s Immortal Soul[sup]TM[/sup]?”
I really cannot speak for Fidelius here, but these are some of the issues I see:
Assuming an Immortal Soul[sup]TM[/sup], and assuming a deity in charge of the disposition of that soul, it’s ultimately not up to me. All I can do is live the best life I can here and now, and whatever happens, happens.
I’d rather live as much and as well as I can now than spend my time trying to find the One True Faith[sup]TM[/sup] (the “right version of the story”). Especially because I don’t personally think there is such a beast.
Can’t for the life of me understand why that scares you. All parents impose mores upon their kids–that’s the job. If the mores you wish to impose are in keeping with Christian morality, why reinvent the wheel?
Buddhism might teach the same ethical and moral standards I seel to instill in my child, but I don’t know Buddhism well enough to use it to teach him. Ditto most other systems of belief.
Let’s try to avoid calling others’ moralities and ethics absurd, shall we? Thanks.
Now then, are you going to tell me that a child should remain tabula rasa until he can choose, fully objectively, his own course? Nope, sorry, ain’t gonna happen. My child will learn to be respectful of others, love his neighbors, and turn the other cheek–and he will learn it by my inculcation of those “absurdities” in him at an early age and with constant repetition. My child will learn from me what I consider to be proper behavior, and will learn it whether he chooses to or not. Again, that’s what raising a child means.
What’s the problem with that?
And an irrelevant one. For me, if I use Christian mythology to teach my kid, I will temper it with an astounding lack of blind credulity. And I’ve seen enough of Dr. F’s writing to know he’ll do the same.
Are you assuming that Christian = fundamentalist? Or literalist? Or intolerant right-winger? If so, you might want to question that assumption.
:shrug: I’m sorry you feel that way. Remember that there are an awful lot of born-again Christians who feel that their non-christian parents screwed then up too.
Now, that’s a different matter altogether. No one’s saying a thing about “fitting in.” We’re talking about ethics, morals, and societal behavior here, not labels.
One certainly fits in well in any society if one is kind, considerate, polite, and caring.
Final note: Unlike the Good Doctor, I do not at this point intend to use Christianity as a backbone of my child’s moral and ethical education. But he’s only 6 months old now, so that might well change. I can certainly think of worse behavioral role models that the Christ.
cmkeller, I have nothing further to add, except to apologize for flaking on your earlier post in which you said what your religion was. I just missed it - happens to the best of us.
But, all in all, I was only using Christianity as an example, I could very well have said, “you are a member of Religion X, what do you think of Religion Y”.
So you answered the question. I have nothing more to respond to, except to say that I really haven’t changed my mind, in a general sense.
I think that individuals are either tolerant or not tolerant, depending on their personality, regardless of their religion. But, as far as I can tell, Religious Tenets in general feed intolerance.
[Quote] originally posted by Jack Batty
**My question is, how do you defend your religion in light of all the others? If you are that devout in your beliefs, you must consider all other religions to be bogus. Is this not the case?
Maybe that’s my biggest beef with religion. I like to consider all things. The acceptance of any one, mandates the exclusion of others.**
[Quote]
It is not true that all religions exclude members of all other religions. The Moslems accept the Jewish religion (Islam is built on it) and the Christian religion (they say Jesus was a great prophet). The Jewish religion accepts everyone, but does have the belief that they are the chosen people (which is not elitist, because it involves responsibilities that we gentiles don’t have).
That said I feel the same about religions being exclusive, but the truth is that they have to be that way. The church I belong to would be closed if they depended on my donations, service or attendance. The people that do have faith in their religion get something from that religion that the rest of us standing here on the sidelines will experience rarely if ever in our lives.
I like to read books by Joseph Campbell who was a generalized expert on myth. This means that he did not specialize in any particular set of myths. He said that all over the world, if you paid attention, all religions were the same on the important points. There is always the creation story, rebirth, resurrection, atonement, etc.. So this would mean that there is not the one that is right. I like what seawitch said about seeing it from different views. I once had a friend that was pretty much a fundie, but he was also the sales manager for his company. I asked him why there were so many different religions and his answer surprised me. He said “You don’t think God would depend on just one salesman do you?”
This last point is not going to be popular, but here goes. I am sure that there are atheists who exist who never express their views, criticize the bible, etc., etc., but I wonder about those that like to post here or on other boards, or have their own sites. Is part of it that they get a certain fullfillment from it? I used to like watching Jimmy Swaggart. I didn’t agree with him at all but
I loved to hear him speak and to disagree with him. There have been a few others that I liked to watch for the same reason, and then many that did nothing for me.