The Weimar Republic collapsed; Germany did not. The present US system is going to collapse, but the fascist regime that follows it will likely last decades before its policies cause it to fall from general systemic failure. There won’t be an external invasion to topple Fascist America like there was with Germany.
Some thoughts:
There are no secret adults ruling the world somewhere. What you see is what you get. No matter how dumb it looks. There is no secret backer richer than Musk, no politician that has more sway over the American public than Trump.
I’d argue the catastrophe has already hit. They’ve already built the camps, troops are already marching in the streets.
If a full blown civil war doesn’t count as a collapse nothing will.
There are still people living in the same geographical location. Not the same people, not the same country.
Different statues, different everything.
This describes the USA to a T.
So come down from your mountain and show us the tablets that show us why it hasn’t already collapsed. National papers are paying tribute to the warlord. How is this not a collapsed democracy? Former government officials are being harassed by the state for speaking out. Since when is that not banana republic/Nazi shit? Tell me what an “adult” sees if not a complete collapse of democratic norms.
You guys are excluding a huge middle here. There is room between “shiny city on the hill” / Leader of the free world vs. “The Stand”
If things aren’t looking like “The Walking Dead” and there is no nuclear winter, that doesn’t mean society hasn’t collapsed and there is no more rule of law. The country that impeached a president over a blowjob has truly and completely ceased to exist. The country where a president resigned in disgrace over some misdemeanors committed in his name does not resemble in any way the USA of 2025.
Also, the idea of some cabal behind them all using Trump and company as a front simply makes no sense, because it’s the people who control the levers of power who can call the shots. Let’s suppose such a cabal actually existed; if Trump or whomever comes after him disagreed with them, he could simple crush them at a whim, because he’s got an army and they don’t.
At most, there’s some self-declared “we’re totally in control, guys” group that has convinced themselves they are the real ones in control, who will get smashed like bugs if they ever actually try to do anything other than what the people with real power want them to do. Just ask all the oligarchs in Russia who “fell out of windows” when Putin decided he didn’t like them how much actual power and safety money and “influence” gets you in a fascist society.
Based on public information and the project’s own website, Project 2025 is a coalition of conservative organizations led by The Heritage Foundation.
The initiative’s partners include a broad range of think tanks, advocacy groups, and non-profit organizations. Here is a list of some of the most prominent organizations involved in the coalition:
- The Heritage Foundation (leader)
- America First Policy Institute
- American Accountability Foundation
- American Center for Law & Justice
- Center for Renewing America
- Citizens United
- Claremont Institute
- Family Research Council
- Judicial Watch
- Leadership Institute
- National Association of Scholars
- National Rifle Association (NRA)
- PragerU
- Young America’s Foundation
This is a partial list, as the coalition includes a large number of organizations collaborating on different aspects of the project.
And that’s if we set aside the numerous data analysis groups that have provided services to Trump’s campaigns.
Nobody needs to think in terms of a ‘cabal’ or ‘invisible forces’ in order to understand that Trump truly is the sociopathic front man for a movement with organization, finances, infrastructure, and determination.
One can also – just as an example – look further into any one of the groups listed above, and – as usual – follow the money.
Though that post was 'confined’ to the lens of Project 2025, it’s also worth mentioning …..
And individuals like Leonard Leo:
Can a self-respecting ‘cabal’ ever operate in plain sight? Sounds like an etymological paradox to me 
Right, it’s no “secret cabal”. It’s an ideological movement and having made it to the top under the Trump banner, to stay there they are fine with supporting whatever else Miller, Bannon, Trump et al are pushing. Their pretense of standing as “serious” or “respectable” people/institutions is just about social recognition from their peers who share their standards, not about having some moral line they will not cross.
If Trump and the magas were actually running things, we’d be better off. Not because they are good people; they’re truly evil. But because they’re too incompetent to actually accomplish anything.
The problem is that behind Trump and the magas there’s a large group of competent evil people who know how to get things done.
Same as above.
Do you think Trump is reading long lists of names and deciding which individuals are being given positions in the government and the military based on his knowledge of them? Of course not. He isn’t even aware of who these people are and what jobs they’re being given. He probably hasn’t even read Project 2025.
All he knows is that there’s an organization out there doing something to take control of the government. And he thinks it’s being done on his behalf.
But the organization that is selecting the people to fill jobs in the government and the military isn’t choosing people based on their loyalty to Trump. They’re choosing them based on their loyalty to the organization.
The one who’s deluding himself that he’s in control is Donald Trump.
Folks who think like this are basically a fish in a bowl where the owner has gone on a long holiday and forgotten to tell anyone to check on the fish.
They don’t even know They’re in a bowl, and have a limited concept of what water is.
Sure the water is getting a bit cloudy, and the level has dropped a bit, but this has happened before and it’s all turned out OK. And you know… if there are any problems, it’s probably all the fault of that god-damned guppy who arrived a few months ago. He looks different. If we get rid of that illegal guppy, things will go back to normal.
Meanwhile, the water slowly drops, the algae grows and the fish keep saying “it’s all going to be fine.”
Well, what is the origin of “cabal”? I mean, that should explain everything.
Your analogy fails because unlike fish in a bowl we are in fact responsible for our own fates.
The fish think so too.
And who are the negligent humans in your analogy?
And as a fish keeper, I can guarantee you that they do not in fact understand abstract concepts like “fate” or “responsibility”.
Neither do the vast majority of Americans. You’re making my case for me.
Moderating:
@What_Exit has previously issued a modnote which applies to the thread in general: Attack the post, NOT the poster. We have had a noticeable number of borderline posts involving this issue in the thread. Again, this is Great Debates, not the Pit as mentioned in the prior note.
Since this is the second time we’re discussing this in just 24 hours, I reiterate, this isn’t to a specific post or poster only, but to the whole thread: leave off the attacks on your fellow posters who we believe are expressing themselves in good faith, or if you think they aren’t take it to the Pit.
You presume that it’s even possible for them to find enough people in the movement that are loyal to them over MAGA/Trump. Trump didn’t take over the Republican party because he’s some political mastermind; he did it because MAGA likes him, and for all intents and purposes MAGA is the Right. If the leaders of those organizations think they can use MAGA to gain power then they are making the same mistake the old Republican leadership did.
I disagree. Trump didn’t invent the right wing in 2016; it’s been up and running since at least the eighties. It seems unlikely that that organization just disappeared.
It also seems implausible that Trump took it over and made it his own. Trump’s a lazy idiot. I doubt he’s capable of making himself breakfast. Why should we imagine he’s capable of taking over a powerful political organization?
And the magas are dumber than Trump. We saw them try to take over the country on January 6. All they could do was break into a building and then wander around trying to figure out what they should do next. Don’t tell me these guys are political masterminds.
This kind of fixation on Trump and the magas is why the Republicans will benefit when they betray them. Too many people will think that all the bad stuff going on was due to Trump and the magas and ended with them.
They don’t have to be. As they continue to fall upwards, more and more we become a true confederacy of dunces.
In a competition between smart criminals and dumb criminals, the smart criminals win.
When you only have to be smarter than your victims, the smarter criminals are dying on the vine.
What does this even mean?
You said criminals have to be smarter than their victims. And you seem to think that Donald Trump and the magas are running things. (Although you’re not clear on this point.)
So are you saying that you think Donald Trump and the magas are smarter than everybody else?
I see no evidence of that. In fact, I see plenty of evidence of the opposite; ie that Trump and the magas are below average in intelligence.