Questions ron fighting a speeding ticket re: my explanation and expectations

Factual Questions
1

Okay, I think GQ is the right forum since I’m looking for more specific, factual “what has happened in the past/what can I expect to happen” answers, but I debated this forum vs. IMHO. If I picked wrong, moderators, I apologize, and please move for me. On with the post, though!

Be warned, math is involved! lol. If you don’t want to follow the math, just scroll down and check out the last 3 paragraphs.

Okay, a couple of weeks ago I got a speeding ticket for going 52 in a 35. I maintain I was going about 40 and said that to the cop when he pulled me over. He stated that:

(1) He saw me catching up to traffic when I passed him,
(2) He had to speed to catch up to me to pace me at 52, which he said he “briefly” did, and
(3) I had caught up to, and passed, one car.

Anyway, I disagreed but it didn’t stop him from writing the ticket. So I went back and did a little research.

First off, I was only on the road for eight-tenths of a mile before I got pulled over. I pulled out immediately behind two cars, and got pulled over as I passed one of those cars .8 miles later. That .8 miles is 4224 feet.

Now, a car traveling 35 MPH on that stretch of road is traveling 3080 feet per minute. A car traveling 52 MPH would travel 4576 FPM. The 40 I allege I was traveling is 3520 FPM.

I tested my car on a highway, and estimated that in normal situations, it takes my car 15 seconds to go from a stop to 52 MPH. In that 15 seconds, the car going 35 MPH, which I pulled out behind, would have traveled 770 feet. My car, in accelerating to 52 MPH would average 26 MPH – going 572 feet in 15 seconds.

So after 15 seconds, I’m 200 feet behind those cars. Traveling 35 MPH, then, those cars would travel the remaining 3454 feet (again, at 3080 FPM) in 1.13 minutes. My car, now at a constant 52 MPH, would travel 5171 feet in the same time. Add in the 572 feet I started from, and that’s a total distance traveled of 5743 feet – over 1500 feet further than the lead car going 35 MPH would have been.

Even if you generously add time due to me having to turn onto the road, let’s say after 15 seconds I’m at 572 feet and they’re at 1000 feet. They’d get to the point I was pulled over in 1.05 minutes. I would have traveled 4790 feet, or 5362 total – still 1100 feet beyond traffic – when the cop said I had passed ONE car.

Now let’s see what happens if the cars were going 40 MPH (3520 FPM) and I was going 52. In those first 15 seconds, traffic would have traveled 880 feet. It would take them .95 minutes to reach .8 miles total. In that .95 minutes, I would travel 4347 feet. Add in the original 572 again, and you’re at 4919 feet – 700 feet past where the cop said I passed ONE car. Even with the same allowance for extra time with me turning onto the road, that won’t make up for it.

However, what if I were going 40 MPH to their 35? That would make the starting locations 770 feet for them and 440 for me (average of 20 MPH/1760 FPM) in that first 15 seconds. Then in the 1.13 minutes it takes them to reach the end point, I would travel, at 40 MPH (3520 FPM), 3978 feet. Add in my starting 440, and that’s 4418 feet – 200 feet ahead of the back of the pack. But ahhh, wait! Add in that extra time for me to turn onto the road, and voila! It works out just about perfectly.

So here’s the question, especially for those who’ve contested tickets and cops/judges. Are they likely to find my logic persuasive?? The cop stated that he pulled out on me because he saw me “catching up” to cars. My assumption is threefold: First, I was accelerating from the dead stop, while those cars were staying constant; I was catching up slightly, but not at the rate he insists; and while most lights on that road flash yellow at that time, there was one red light ahead that, while the cars were far enough behind that they didn’t have to stop, they did slow slightly at the sight of a red light (and with that, then, I would have been even FURTHER ahead of the back car at the alleged 52 MPH!).

The reason, in my eyes, the cop said he paced me at 52 MPH (which he said he “briefly” did, remember) is that he had to speed to catch up to me, based on the same theories used above, and HE was going 52 MPH when he finally reached the back of the pack and used THAT as the pacing. I would travel 2500 (roughly half the distance) feet at 40 MPH in .71 minutes. In the same .25 minutes to accelerate to 52 MPH, and traveling the remaining .46 minutes at the same rate, we’d both travel 2500 feet in roughly the same time, especially when taking into consideration the time it takes turning onto the road as I did earlier.

Also, especially for those who have contested tickets, what can I expect? If they don’t agree with me, do I have to pay extra for court fees? How much? Also, are there “plea bargains” so to speak where they agree to erase the record if I complete a driving course or something? Am I likely to be “sentenced” to that as a compromise? I just got my first ticket off my record, I don’t want ANOTHER one on there immediately.

Any answers you guys can give me would be extremely helpful. Mainly I’m wondering (1) what my chances are of getting it overturned, and failing that (2a) what extra costs I may be liable for and (2b) do I have a shot of getting an option to get the record erased with a driving class by going to court for it rather than just paying the ticket. Thanks much!

2

Yes to all three. You will have to pay court costs if found guilty; however, usually the judge will lower the fine, so you will still come out ahead. You can ask, if found guilty, for the judge to allow you to attend a class on safe driving in lieu of a fine, or to perform community service.

As to your being found not guilty, hey, it’s worth a shot. No harm in contesting, especially since the arresting officer really has not made much of a case as to how fast you were going. Nonetheless, admitting that you were going 40 you are admitting that you were still breaking the law and the judge may find you guilty of that, but may allow you to attend a safe driving class in lieu of a fine.

3

Hmmm…I see your point (even though I didn’t make it all the way through the math), and I agree it wouldn’t hurt to try. You may impress the judge, but then again you may bore him to death, but I doubt he’d go any tougher on you for such a valiant effort. I went to court once on a speeding ticket, mainly because friends advised I’d probably not get any points and that’s what I was concerned about. Didn’t get fined, had to pay court costs (don’t remember what that was – not a lot), and no points. No driving school, no community service. I was happy.

4

i couldn’t follow all the math but i didn’t really try. That’s because i don’t think a judge would try either-- partly because he doesn’t have the time/inclination to do story problems in traffic court, and partly because you admit you were speeding anyway.

the important thing is: CONTEST THE TICKET. if the cop doesn’t show up in court, they will have to throw out your case because the prosecution will have no witness. At least that’s how it worked for me in Indianapolis in 1993.

I was pulled over for speeding, which i was-- 60 in a 50. So i was just going to pay the ticket. However, after the cop wrote me the speeding ticket, he proceeded to write ANOTHER ticket. This one for failure to wear a seat-belt.

I always, always wear a seat-belt. I had merely taken it off after i had stopped so i could pull my wallet out of my front pants pocket. I was incredulous when he ticketed me and i promised to contest it.

I showed up in court a few weeks later but the cop didn’t. no witness, no case, both counts dropped. no court costs, no nothing.

good luck!

5

**Doctor Goo Fee **, it brings back some bad memories to hear you say that. I got a two tickets the same way ! Unfortunately I was on a road trip through Ohio and there was no way I could make it back there to fight the ticket.

The thing that still bothers me about it to this day (besides my 100% increase in insurance for the false no-seatbelt ticket) is this. When I told the cop I had my seatbelt on and took it off as he approached the car in order to retrieve my registration from the glove box, he said “Don’t lie to me son, I see this kind of thing a hundred times a day”. I said “Well Officer, I don’t think you see it as often as you think.” I mean, this police officer is putting people in under serious financial stress when he knows damn well that he can’t tell when someone has their seatbelt on or not ! What other perception problems does he have ? I’d hate to be near the scene of a crime with this dildo on duty.

Hokienautic, I can tell you right now they will not let you proceed with your story problem. I do recommend going to court to fight the ticket however. I think you could make the same case w/o using all the math. Just because the police officer had to go 52 to catch up to you does not mean that you were also going 52. Besides, at 52 mph you would be blowing past all other traffic (if they were obeying the limit). Good luck !

6

Thanks for the words, everyone. Those last two posts are shockers, mainly because I did the same thing you guys did in that I had my seatbelt off when the cop got to my window. I guess I’m lucky he didn’t try to stick me with that as well.

I don’t plan on doing the whole story problem in the courtroom, but plan on at least having a quick chart with Acceleration Distance and Remaining Distance listed on there, along with a total. Especially since the cop said he pulled out after me because he saw me speeding to catch up to traffic, he’s claiming with that I was going at a constant rate which is impossible.

Also, someone elsewhere brought up the point that there’s a minimum distance they have to pace you?? They mentioned a mile. Anyone ever heard of that, because I wasn’t even on the road a mile if that’s true. We’ll see how it goes.

I don’t think I’ll admit I was going 40, though, just point out that I couldn’t have been going 52.

One clarification question, though, regarding taking a driving class: would that be in lieu of a fine only, or is that in lieu of a conviction? As in, will it be on my record still or no? Like I said, I just got my first ticket off my record, I’d like to keep it clean a LITTLE while. lol.

7

Be careful. I had a very similar situation happen once. I was going 35 miles an hour in a 35 mph zone. I am certain of this as I had taken a friend to the airport since he had been stopped for speeding in this exact spot a week earlier (and then arrested on an outstanding warrant) so we knew it was a speed trap. As I drove down the road a car began to approach me at a high rate of speed, so much so that I instictively accelerated to avoid being rear ended. Turned out it was the Tampa Airport police in their speed trap. The cop told me he clocked me going 55 mph, which I never was, but he sure as hell was. Took him to court and he just showed up and lied. The particular judge convicted everyone who didn’t have a lawyer that day (I got to sit through a bunch of cases); the one guy who didn’t get convicted was driving a Rolls Royce 70 mph in a 45 mph zone, was caught on radar by a radar instructor. There was no mitigating circumstance at all but he was rich enough to bring a lawyer, so he won. Everyone else got to pay their original fine PLUS court costs.

Moral of the story: just because you’re right doesn’t mean you’ll win in court. I’d check for legal advice in your area (traffic is different by jurisdiction) and find the best and worst possible outcome. Make sure that either result is worth your time. In hindsight it was stupid of me to fight it as it cost me lost income far in excess of the actual ticket.

Good luck.

8

First of all, I wish certain posters (name omitted because he knows who he is) would stop posting simple, formulaic answers to legal questions without consideration of such key factors as jurisdiction.

Second of all, what you should do in your situation depends on where you are and what tends to happen in your traffic court. It might also depend on what prior difficulties (if any) you have had with regard to your driving record. There is no guarantee that your jurisdiction in your situation will offer alternatives to fines.

If you really want to have a good idea what is likely to result from contesting the ticket, go down to the traffic court in which you will appear and spend a day watching the procedings. This will give you some concept of how matters get handled. It will also help you in whittling down your presentation to the bare minimum you need to make your point.

9

I agree with the above, there isn’t anyway we know what the law is where you are.

Tickets are covered here pretty well. If you want, you can buy one of those books, Beat That Ticket, or similar for research on legal aspects.

10

Thanks for the advice, DSYoungEsq. Can you answer one other question? You mention not knowing the alternatives to fines because it’s based on jurisdiction.

IF they do in fact offer an alternative – say, a driving school – is that (1) simply an alternative to a fine and the ticket still goes on my record, fine or no fine, or (2) a situation where it’s “complete this driving school and we’ll erase the ticket from your record”?

11

Again, the answer to your question is based on jurisdiction (local rules). In most places that I’ve lived you get no points, in some instances no fine but pay for the school which is pretty much the cost of the fine. There may be a phone number on the warrant and you can just call and ask, otherwise research through state or local traffic court. They should be fairly helpful. You can probably even find it on-line (what state do you live in?)

12

Sorry, I meant to say in my last post that I’m in VA. It’s Fairfax City Traffic Court. I may be a little paranoid, but one of my reasons for not calling the number for info is that I thought they might have Caller ID and would be able to inform the cop “hey, this guy is gonna contest, be sure to come in.” lol. That’s always a hope, that the cop simply doesn’t show.

Okay, maybe not, but that (the Caller ID scenario) did enter my mind. I might call them tomorrow, though, just to see what my likely options will be. I don’t mind paying the court costs or the drivers school … I just want to keep that record clean, and if going to the class one Saturday will do it, I’m game. Thanks, all.

13

Call from a pay phone.