I’ve got some questions about writing books that I’ve been curious about, so I thought I’d ask my fellow Dopers. I did some searching for past threads, but didn’t find anything. If I have missed such a thread, I apologize.
I’ve been working on a novel. Now, I write a lot of screenplays, and am very familiar with formatting for them. However, I don’t know that much about formatting for books.
What I was wondering was, how does what the author has written translate to being published? Specifically, let’s say an author writes their novel in Word at 12 pt Times New Roman, double-spaced. After this is edited, how much does it change as far as pages go? Are the pages kept the same, but the font size changed to accomodate the page size of the book, or does a page written in Word equate to a page-and-a-half in a book?
Basically, are the pages kept the same and merely shrunk (or enlarged), or are the contents of pages moved around to accomodate the size of the book?
I know this would change depending on the book, but I was wondering what the general practice was for novels.
Don’t worry about pages, page numbers, etc. Publishes don’t either. Go by words. A novel to be published is called 400,000 words or so, not 200 pages.
Generally, it’s about five hundred words a page, though. And formatting doesn’t generally matter, that’s why you have editors.
Also, don’t spend too much time worrying about publishing, unless you know someone in the industry. I used to read for a small publisher. There would be about two hundred manuscripts. We’d look at the first page of each, maybe, and then toss any we didn’t like or didn’t get around to reading. It’s kind of a brutal industry.
My advice, stick to screenplays. Most screenplays are less than 20,000 words. And generally, you can get about 5 to 15 thousand if a producer options your screenplay and about 75 thousand if they buy it, even more if it actually gets made into a movie.
For a 400,000 word novel, you’re looking at about a 8 to 10 thousand advance if it gets published and very little after that.
It takes years to write novels, a screenplay takes about a week and a half.
Do the math and stick with the screenplays, don’t waste you’re time with novels. Trust me, there’s way more money being thrown around in Hollywood than there is in the print industry.
Either way, don’t worry about format.
Ah, thank you kindly, roryaxis. I hadn’t really thought about just word count (though I probably should have).
I am sticking to screenplays, as screenwriting and filmmaking are my main interests. However, this particular idea seemed better suited to a novel, so I thought I’d write it up. It might get published, it might not, but it’s something that I wanted to get out and onto paper. It might eventually become a screenplay, actually.
I’ve written a few novels myself, and trust me, they will never get published, and I do know people in the industry.
I figure that they’ll end up in a “Complete Works” book long after I’m dead. Novels are too hard. Not to be slothfull about it, but not only are they hard to sell and not only do they net very little money, there are just too many bloody words. Screenplays are nice and to the point, just tell the story, don’t waste space just talking about the weather and things like that. What I hate most about novel writing is, for instance, how many different ways can you decribe water? Constantly checking that damn thesaurus just for the purpose of telling your story can get boring. The same with dialogue: he said, he replied, he spoke, he coughed, he uttered, he ranted, he grunted, he whisphered, ad infinitum.
I’ll respectfully disagree with you, roryaxis, though I’ll first welcome you to the SDMB. 
A novel, like anything else, should never have “too many bloody words.” It should have exactly enough words. If you are using more words than you need to make the story long enough to be a novel, then you should strongly consider the possibility that your story is too small.
The novel I am writing currently will probably come in at well under 100,000 words, but that won’t stop it from completely and fully telling the story I have to tell in it. The brevity comes from its epistolary form and complete lack of narration. I am aware that some publishers may have trouble seeing something that short as a novel, but if it comes to that point, I will add more story to my words, not just more words to my story.
Copyeditor here.
PLEASE don’t worry about the final format of the book when you’re preparing your manuscript. Authors who do that give editors big whomping headaches. Your manuscript should ALWAYS be 12-point Courier, double-spaced (everything! even references and footnotes), with minimum one-inch margins. (This is to leave room for the editor to work, if the edit is being done on hard copy.) After the book is edited, it goes to typesetting, which will create a completely different look based on what the designer has come up with. The manuscript provides content only, not any sort of visual information (except as written instructions).
How do you go about getting something published then?
Do you have to start small (short stories etc) and develop a kind of writers’ CV, or just submit a manuscript to every man, woman, child and animal on the planet and hope for the best?
The pages in the final version of my book had nothing at all to do with the pagination of my original neatly-printed Word document. There was surprisingly little editing out of my words, but they still slid the text around on the page by leaving really big spaces at the start of each chapter (bif block of white space on each chapter start, because they started it halfway down the page). Also, since I had a LOT of pictures, they left spaces for the pictures in the text. Also, they used smaller print. My manuscript was an impressive whopping 400 + pages of printed manuscript, even without the pictures. The printed book with the pictures had fewer than 400 pages.
Here’s information on Manuscript Format and other technical issues of writing. (BTW, if you can’t tell, the one by Roger MacBride Allen is a joke; sheet metal is not the preferred medium.)
roryaxis – Novels aren’t any harder to sell than short fiction (or any harder to write – it just takes longer). Also, any pro writer will tell you that 90% of the time, there’s only one way to say “he said”: “He said.” (See “Said” Bookism in The Turkey City Lexicon.) If you have to check the thesaurus, you’re doing something wrong. Multiple synonyms for “water” don’t make you a good writer; the opposite is true (see “Burly Detective Syndrome” in the Turkey City Lexicon). Finally, a novel DOES tell the story, and if you’re putting in anything that isn’t part of telling that story, you’re doing it wrong. If that makes the book too short, then the story isn’t worth a novel.
A response to dylan here.
I suppose it depends on the type of writing you are doing. I started with short stories and once I established myself there, I acquired a literary agent who contacted a couple of publishers (both paperback). She suggested one of the two who were interested and I went with them. I have found that some name recognition can help in being published. My nineth and tenth short story were a great deal easier to get in print than my first or second. The same went for my second and third books (although they were sold as a series).
In point of fact, I started by writing for newspapers and continue to write (and edit) for them as my primary source of income. That’s where I learned my craft of “tight” writing. When I started and was trying to figure out if I wanted to start by writing a book or newspaper articles, I sought the advice of a commercial pilot friend of mine. He said he didn’t start out in his field by flying 747s. He started with small aircraft. He suggested that I start with the small aircraft in my field. I did.
TV
p.s. Listen to what Chuck has to say. He sits on the other side of the desk so he knows.
Another professional writer/editor checking in here…
Format may not matter for novelists, but it can be the kiss of death for screenwriters if your script doesn’t follow industry conventions. Script readers have such a huge pile of scripts to plow through that they’re just looking for reasons to reject one, and improper formatting is one way they winnow them down - the justification is that if the writer doesn’t know enough to format the script properly, how professional can they be?
400,000 words for a novel? Although there may not be a “standard” length for a novel, I was under the distinct impression that the basic novel would come in at about 70,000-100,000 words. Of course, you may need more to tell your story but any less and you fall into novella territory.
I do agree with the screenplay wordcount - Ferris Beuller’s Day Off, for example, has about 22,000 words. And if it’s good enough for Ferris, then it’s good enough for me.
Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? 
I just don’t like writing novels. Say what you will, but in my own experience, the format gets in the way of the story. But, then again, I also don’t like reading novels.
I say, save prose for non-fiction.
And you can’t argue that novels don’t pay nearly as well as screenplays. I’ve optioned two scripts to producers. One got me 12000 dollars, the other got me 8000, that’s after fees. Now, the first script took me two days to write, the second took me about a week.
Please, find me a novel that was written in that short of a time with that few words and made that much money. If someone out there can prove me wrong I’ll readily retract.
To each his or her own, roryaxis. I hope I speak for everyone when I wish you the best of luck.
Please, however, don’t assume that we’re out here trying to prove you wrong. There are a fair number of published authors on this message board (alas, not including myself), and I suspect a great many of them are mulling over at this very moment coming down on you like a semi hauling hogs.
I’ll simply reiterate a point you made quite well: You don’t like writing novels. I respect that; in fact, the more of my novel I write, the more I respect it. It is hard work. I have written in every form that has ever struck me from poetry to scriptwriting to fiction and nonfiction prose. In fact, my only significant recognition to date as a writer was in the field of scriptwriting. I enjoy all forms of writing, but I try to be sure I select the right form for what I am trying to convey. Therefore, no matter how much work it may be, I have decided that the story I am telling in my novel deserves the scope and expansiveness permitted to it by that form.
Please do me the honor of respecting that in me as much as I respect your dislike of writing novels.
Thanks.
And my apologies to silent_rob for what has turned into something of a hijack.
“…like a semi hauling hogs.” I like that, I may steal it.
TV
Please do. I did. It’s paraphrased from C. W. McCall’s “Convoy.”
Glad I could share!
:continued apologies to silent_rob:
Who said that? The wrong format can hurt your chances to sell your book. The editor may still read it, but you’re starting out at a disadvantage if you don’t follow industry standards.
Buy the Writers Guide, sold in most book stores, hard bound, thick, pricey because editors, and I know this from my efforts to get published, demand formatting. Cover page done in a certain way, complete with word count, font a certain size and type (times Roman, 8) lines double spaced, name in upper, right corner of every page along with abbreviated title and page number and, on the last page END to be placed at the end of the story.
You’ll have better success writing short stories for publishers who buy them for periodicals or magazines. Many will ship your rejected work back (if you include an SASE) with helpful comments written all over them and some will even suggest you send them more work. If you get published there once or twice, it will help you in getting published with a book.
You’ll also need to know about copyright laws. The Writers Digest will help there, plus they list every type of publisher under various heading, the formats they want, the price per word paid and size of desired piece along with type and list those who do not require your work going through an agent.
Oh, yeah. Spelling is a real big thing with these editors. It’s not like it used to be where you could send in a book hand written on brown paper and the publisher, estatic, would have your work corrected, ship you a big fee, take you to dinner and print the book and cry for more.
They’ll not even open a hand written manuscript and if the format is off, it’s liable to be chucked in the big garbage can they each keep by their desks.
Good luck!!
8 point?
My eyes are bleeding just thinking about it.
Roryaxis? I think it’s probably for the best that you don’t write novels 