First the obligatory spoiler space. I WILL be giving away information from book 2 and so if you haven’t read through that, it’s best to skip this thread.
OK, I have a few questions which I’ve discussed with a friend who has also read the book. We couldn’t come up with any definite answers so I thought I’d bring the discussion to the Teaming Thousands.
First, I’ll mainly be asking from book 2: A Clash of Kings. Anyone else with questions up to this point, feel free to ask as well. I certainly don’t mind this being hijacked into a discussion of the series. One caveat: pleeeeeeeeeeease do not discuss book three because I haven’t gotten to it yet. Thank you.
OK, questions:
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What was Theon thinking attacking Winterfell? Snotty as he may have been, he lived there for half his life. He was snubbed at the end, I guess, but certainly his resentment couldn’t have been that bad.
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More on Theon. Other than being a complete moron, what in the world possessed him to fake the death of Bran and Rickon? 1) As soon as they reached another Riverrun (which, for all he knew was where they were heading), the gig was up. 2) As soon as he realized that half his troops were being killed off secretly by Winterfell residents, wouldn’t it have been so much more beneficial to say “um…just kidding. They’re not really dead. Stop killing us please.”
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Why would Stannis agree to send the Red Sorceress back to his castle? She was the only reason he was winning! And why would she agree to go back?
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So Arya overthrows the castle, and brings in members loyal to the Starks. At this point, being away from her mother for the better part of a year and kept as a slave, she decides that it’s better to act as a serving girl than tell her own side who she is? Why?
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What exactly is Dany’s motivation to come back and rule? Her brother was the usurped king. She was just his travelling companion. I guess I can understand her desire somewhat, but she has no real reason to want to come back home. Why not set up shop where she is and rule there?
Ender, good questions!
Motivations are really hard to unravel in this series – characters do things in the first book and you don’t know the reason until the second or third book.
Or if you’re like me, you just read and enjoy and don’t think too much about the details.
There’s a Yahoo reading group that’s been discussing these books for months. Those folks are so far into Martin’s world, I don’t think they’ll ever get out, and they’re having wonderful discussions about Dany’s possible alliances, Jon Snow’s parentage, etc.
You might want to check out http://hometown.aol.com/vbkorik27/main.html too.
It’s a chapter by chapter summary of the first three books, and The Hedge Knight, the short story from the Legends anthology that predates the novels.
I love this kind of discussion. 
- Why does any late-adolecent male do anything? He was trying to please his father. Or rather, he was trying to prove to everyone, especially himself, that he was the kind of man he thinks his father wants him to be.
Of course, Theon has two father figures, Balon Grayjoy and Eddard Stark, which is probably why he blew everything so badly. As his sister told him, a real iornman would have grabbed everything of value, including the hostages, and headed back to the ships. But Theon’s trying to be a Stark, too. He dosn’t want to just grab the loot and run, he wants to stay and be a “just” ruler.
- Theon seems to be a tactical thinker. He’s seems good, even great, at dealing with immidiate, limited scale problems, but not so good at dealing with long term ones. Remeber, he’s what, 16? 17? And he’s not a Stark, so he dosn’t reach emotional maturaty at age 7.
Basically, he couldn’t lose face by admiting he lost them. He should have cut his losses and run, but his pride wouldn’t let him. And rember, it wasn’t originally his idea, it was Reek’s. And Reek didn’t seem to have Theon’s best interests at heart . . .
- I’m not sure. He might have wanted to make it clear to her that he was in charge. He might have been (quietly) worried that just maybe he had made a less-than-honorable ally. Or maybe he just didn’t think it was appropriate to bring a woman, even a priest, to what he knew was going to be a huge battle.
And whatever influence she has, it’s unlikely she’d disobey a direct order. She’s playing “trusted advisor,” after all. And even if she wouldn’t, this is Stannis, after all. He’s not going to accept mutney.
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I think she was just utterly out of the habit of trusting anyone. While they were technically on “her” side, (or rather, Robb’s side, which isn’t exactly the same thing) she wasn’t sure she could trust them.
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Because the Danys’ parts of the books make no sense. Of course, as she falls ass-backwards into power and fortune everywhere else, there’s no reason to assume it won’t work in Westeros . . . (All snarkyness aside, that thought does occur to some people later on, but I can’t tell you about it, obviously)
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“He basically operates on unbelivable luck and conicidence.”
AuntiePam, thanks for the link!
Ura-Maru, I got the impression that Theon was 20-21. He came when he was 10 and stayed for 10 years.
For the first book, I thought that Dany’s part made no real sense until the end. Her family is dead, she killed her brother, her husband dies, her child dies, her troops left her. So…her entire story was for nothing? It wasn’t until the dragons hatched that it all fell into place. But still, it’s going to take years, if not several decades, for the dragons to reach adulthood. What they can do now to help her I’m still not sure.
What Ura-Maru said (except for the part about Dany).
1,2. Theon is an arrogant, self-centered fool who cannot plan more than a week in advance. Ever since meeting his father, he operates out of an ever-growing sense of desperation, and desperate men - not to mention desperate boys - do desperate things. Every time he reaches a crucial junction, he reacts, panicking and making the wrong decision.
That’s one great thing about these books - not only do the characters behave completely in character, but they don’t always act logically.
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Concerning Stannis and Melissandra - we have no idea who controls who, and we have no idea what the red woman’s real agenda is.
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Arya is, after all, just 11 years old, and I’m not sure how strong her grip on sanity is, considering what she’s gone through. She’s gone feral.
Besides, would you trust Roose Bolton?
- Unlike Ura, I actually love the Dany chapters - we’ve discussed this before. So to answer your question:
Now that her brother’s dead, she sees herself as the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms. I mean, once all the male issue is dead, isn’t it standard that the throne should pass to the oldest female? That’s the way it works in England, which is the clear model for the series.
After all, she sees herself as the one responsible for saving the kingdom from the hands of a murderous ursurper, a man who killed her father (who she thinks was a saint) and her eldest brother (who remains the biggest enigma of the series). She has to return.
Besides, your question is oddly prescient.
Well, here’s my take on things. I’ve just started reading book three, and it’s been a while since I read book two, so my memory of things might be just a little fuzzy on some points. Keeping that in mind…
- Theon always felt that he had been treated poorly for the whole of his stay at Winterfell. In his view of things, his blood was just as good as the Starks, as the Greyjoys had been kings once, too. Self-styled kings, that no one else really acknowledged as such, but explain that to them…
Also, Winterfell is/was the seat of power north of the Neck. If he takes and holds it, or just destroys the place, he shows his father that he IS worthy to be the next king of the Iron Isles. Besides, cut off the head, the body falls on its own…
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I’m really not sure. It must have seemed like a good idea at the time. As to why he can’t say “just kidding”, well, what is his proof? He can’t exactly trot them out for show…
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Umm…Stannis isn’t in charge there anymore. The Red Sorceress has her own motives, which remain secret for now.
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Remember, Arya is ELEVEN YEARS OLD. She has no idea what the best course of action would be, particularly since she doesn’t really know who is still on her family’s side. So she’s playing a “wait and see” game. Rather intelligent, I think.
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Well, she CAN’T rule there. She can’t rule anywhere, yet, since her army is gone and the dragons are just hatchlings. She has a legitimate claim on the throne back home, with the added motivation of vengeance. Her ENTIRE FAMILY was murdered or killed, and even though MOST of them deserved it, SHE doesn’t know that, since she only knows what her brother and other people loyal to her cause have told her. Also she’s what, fourteen? Did the things you wanted to do when you were that age REALLY make all that much sense?