Your mother eats spotted dick. 
Let’s see if I understand this
The workers do not have enough time to erect a menorah, and maybe a few other religious symbols, if requested. Yet they DO have enough time to take down, store, and redisplay 14 big christmas trees in response to a lawsuit.
I think I know which side is full of shit.
Actually the idea that a Christmas Tree is a religious symbol, or at least a Christian symbol, is incredibly ignorant and stupid. If anything the Christmas tree is a pagan symbol, but in common practice it isn’t really much of a pagan symbol and is nothing more than a secular tradition. It has absolutely nothing to do with the religious, Christian celebration of Christmas.
So the only way a government authority (in this case the Port of Seattle) can put up a symbol of any kind without it in fact being a religious symbol is if every single worker in the government agrees that they don’t view the symbol as religious?
All the Copts I’ve known would disagree with you. Of course Christmas trees are a Christian symbol, used by many Copts, even if they’re not native to the Coptic tradition.
Man, I guess you need to phone this info in to the SCOTUS, since they have a giant ten commandments sitting behind them every time they make a ruling.
The SCOTUS certainly does not hold that, “if you put in any religious symbol, and aren’t prepared to put in all” that you are establishing. In fact, it expressly has stated in very recent cases that government can display sacred religious icons as long as they are not proselytizing and as long as the display is secular in nature. I’m not really sure what’s more secular than a Christmas tree when it comes to a holiday symbol, maybe an easter egg, or the Easter bunny.
Aside from a giant Ten Commandments display within the court room itself, on display at the Supreme Court building is a statue of Moses.
Okay, did this guy threaten a lawsuit or not? Threat=asshole. No threat=innocuous. I don’t particularly care how he expected them to respond to the threat, if he made one; it was still an asshole thing to do.
Daniel
How is it a Christian symbol? I’m a Christian, explain to me in what way a Christmas tree is a religious symbol?
Just because it happens to be displayed prominently on and around the date of celebration of Christ’s Mass does not mean it is Christian any more than a Menorah is Christian because it happens to be displayed around the same time as Christmas.
Christmas is both a religious and secular holiday, having both religious and secular aspects. And most organized Christian groups don’t have any sort of religious reverence for pine trees, in fact I’m not aware of any that do.
Nativity scene? Obviously Christian. Crucifix? Come on. Christmas Tree? No way. It was made part of Christmas celebrations many centuries after the fact, and were adopted from old pagan custom.
As evidence that Christmas is both a religious and secular holiday, I’ll point to the fact that the secular Federal government of the United States marks December 25th as an official holiday.
Why not put up seven Christmas trees, and light one each night?
It should probably be pointed out the guy in question is a Lubavitcher, and that particular Jewish sect has a long history of making trouble and being generally annoying twits everywhere they go.
I have no idea if he threatened a lawsuit or not, though.
I’d be perfectly willing to say the Christmas tree used to be a pagan symbol, and even that some people today might see it as that. And there are plenty of Christians who see it as a religious symbol now. I don’t go to church, but i’ve certainly seen a tree up in the church down my road at Christmas. Never any decorations for Diwali, though. Funny that. Anecdotes aren’t data, of course.
No, because most of the government don’t have a say in whether religious symbols are put up. I’d say if you had a hand in the decision making process, then putting up a symbol you think is religious would move towards promoting that religion (unless, of course, you promote any other religion people want you to).
But you’ve made me curious. What’s the current standard for religious symbols on government property? How many people must consider a symbol religious before it becomes unconstitutional for the government to put it up?
The rabbi did threaten a lawsuit, that’s in the link provided in the OP. I think the threat was entirely justified, since the airport ignored his initial (relatively reasonable) request citing a thoroughly fabricated reason for not putting up the menorah. “Too much work” they said. He merely threatens them with a lawsuit and all of a sudden they have enough free time to take their Christmas Trees and go home. Then they find enough free time to put all of them back up again, sans menorah, when the appalled rabbi drops the threat.
How many man hours of work did they use to take these trees down and put them back up, in the middle of their “busy season” all in the effort to avoid using labor to put up one menorah?
Yeah, those Lubavitchers refuse to fade into the woodwork & be good jews. They’ve sponsored several public menorahs around Houston. Sounds as though the Seattle group is a bit slow…
Anyway, the trees are back up & the airport plans to do something next year.
Queen Vicki & her German Husband brought the Christmas Tree to England; from thence, it spread to the USA & elsewhere. No matter what the folklorists say, we associate the Christmas Tree with Christmas, even though it’s not really a (Christian) religious symbol.
Besides, harping on those Ancient Nordic Roots will just annoy some folks.
Missed your post on explaining why a tree isn’t secular,** Martin**. Off the top of my head, having a star on top would seem to be commemorating a particular event. Decorating with angels are a more general recognition of a religion, though there are probably religions other than Christianity that involve similar-looking beings.
Here’s the thing, though; i’m perfectly willing to say that Christmas trees can be secular. I’ve said so myself already in this thread. I myself will have a Christmas tree, even though i’m an athiest. But, just as they can be a secular symbol, they can also be a religious symbol. Hence my whole sidetrack on whether or not the people who see the trees or put them up consider it a symbol or not; i’ll quite happily say that there are people who’ll look at them and think "yay, Christmas 
" in an entirely secular and irreligious manner. There’s also people who’ll look on them and be pleased at the celebration of the birth of their Lord, however, which is kinda the point at which putting up a menorah also is pretty reasonable.
Huh? Christmas trees = religious symbols? I must’ve missed that memo. I’m Catholic. I’m pretty darn sure that nobody in my parish would be saying prayers before the Holy Christmas Tree!
I think the point is that the trees are a symbol of Christmas which is the celebration of the birth of Christ, not that there is any religious significance whatsoever to the trees themselves.
I believe that people should be inclusive. I think the menorah should go up and if there’s a Kwanzaa symbol, that too. As others have pointed out it can’t be that costly or time-consuming to put up one extra ornament.
As for the rabbi, he’s been on every TV show I’ve seen arguing FOR the Christmas trees and saying he’ll not be suing. He was saying all that he wanted was to be included. I don’t think that’s such a bad thing. He’s clearly rethought the suing option - maybe just tried to put a little too much effort behind his request.
I pit people who are now ranting on about ‘troublemaking Jewish sects’ :rolleyes: and the like.
Vancouver has a BIG Diwali celebration 
I think the whole ‘assimilate’ emphasis in American culture leads to people feeling left out, sidelined, rejected. I pit that, too.
I’m not even Jewish, but given a choice between yet another Christmas tree and an 8-foot-tall inflatable menorah, I know which one I’d rather look at. Especially if it lights up. I bet it does; why even have an 8-foot-tall inflatable menorah if it doesn’t light up somehow? Or maybe the candles are designed to flail around in the air like those colorful nylon sock things in front of car dealerships.
I can see it now: the rabbi parachutes into the airport, hits the ground running, tucks and rolls into the baggage claim lobby, drops the package, pulls the cord and dives clear. PPFFOOOMPPH! Pneumatic Judaism! And, in the event of a water landing, the menorah may be used as a flotation device.
I was wondering yesterday why there wasn’t a thread on this yet. I like this rabbi’s response, which basically boils down to . . . overreact much? Blame enough to go around for a poorly handled situation. Linky to Newsweek.
And so, another sect is born.
You’ve gotta be kidding me, right? This has to be one of the most spurious arguments I’ve ever heard. Who, other than Christians and people brought up in a christian environment, displays a “Christmas Tree?” It is a symbol of the christian holiday of Christ’s Mass. Full Stop. It may have originated as something altogether different, but that does not mean that what it is viewed as today is not religious.
And a cross is just two big logs nailed together so that someone can be tied/nailed to it and killed, right? Origin does not equal current use. You even admit that it is part of the celebrations.
You even admit that the tree is a symbol of an aspect of your religion, but tell us that it’s not religious. Just because there is not a ceremony and/or prayer involved does not make a thing any less a symbol of your religion and, hence, religious.
The argument that the Christmas Tree is not religious is confusing “religious” and “sacred.”
To those arguing that a “Christmas Tree” is not a religious symbol, please ask yourself: would it still be a “Christmas Tree” if it were decorated with red flowers and lit up with exactly seven candle (with a new one being lit every night of Chanukah?)
What would be really keen just about now is if the thread did not continue its slide down the pointless argument over whether or not Martin Hyde worships a tree, or even the also-irrelevant-but-more-intriguing-and-possibly-worth-a-thread-of-its-own question of whether he should. The questions are whether the display of a Christmas tree (1) constitutes the creation of a public forum in the airport; and/or (2) whether there can be a fair use policy for that forum that includes Christmas trees but excludes menorahs. Christians don’t worship trees? Great. Jews don’t worship fire. Let’s stick to the subject. Was a public forum created, and if so, what excuse is there for excluding the rabbi that passes First Amendment scrutiny?
And yeah, the Lubovichers cause trouble. They, along with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other minority religions, have caused so much trouble over the years that our Constitution protects religious freedom better than it has been throughout history, anywhere. Thank the Lord for the troublemakers.