Rabbi

Factual Questions
41

Izzy, in the NT, they used in the original Greek, a few words of Aramaic, but were sure to translate them: the original aramaic words have come down intact, but the translations might be incorrect. Eg, John translates “Rabbi” as “Master”, which perhaps has an incorrect connotation.

As for whether JC actually SAID he was the Messiah, it differs per Gospel. In Matthew, there is no such out & out statement, at least to the public, in John (witten much later), there is. Of, course, I am not implying that those Jews who accept JC as the Messiah would not be a sect, and a rather radical sect, but those Lubavichers who still believe their Rabbi was the Messiah are still considered members of a JEWISH sect, even tho misguided.

The Christians have separated out a few lines in the OT which imply a “second coming”, do you want me to ferret out & quote them? And by the way, the above “discussion” was very interesting, even to us Goyim.

So let’s see if I have this clear: A rabbi has to be ordained, except when he doesn’t; he is not needed to perform ceremonies/sacraments, except when he is; anyone an do the ceremonies, except when they can’t; a Kohan is a priest, except when he’s isn’t; and a rabbi is not a minister, except when he is. I’m clear. :smiley:

42

IzzyR sez (re: JC as heretic)

Excellent point. New thread time - I’ll see what the Teeming Millions know of the scholarship concerning what JC actually said, and what was put in his mouth.

V.

43

Well, it looks like we are going to have to twiddle our thumbs and whistle a while, all our Talmudic Scholars are now on “holiday”.

44

I am posting here to keep this one up until our rabbinical experts come back from holiday. Please ignore this post. If this had been a real post… :smiley:
**Don’t do this.

-manhattan
GQ Mod.**

45

see the above post.

46

Daniel:

There are two major differences between groups such as Jews for Jesus and the Lubavitchers who still believe that the Rebbe is moshiach:

  1. The Lubavitchers still observe the Torah. They still keep kosher, keep Shabbos, the holidays, etc.
  2. And more importantly… they haven’t deified their messiah. It’s one thing to mistakenly believe that someone is the messiah (some of our greatest sages have done this). It’s another altogether to claim that he’s God (or the Son of God).

As for a Rabbi:

  1. Rabbis have to be ordained.

  2. The title “Rabbi” however, may be applied to someone out of respect (I know someone who insists on calling me Rabbi Steinhardt, even though I’m not a Rabbi.)

  3. Becoming a rabbi does not confer upon the person any special “powers” (as in the ability to do sacrements in the Christian Church).

  4. While anyone can perform a marriage, a Rabbi is used primarily for two reasons:
    a) The laws of marriage are complex and a rabbi should be present in case anything is amiss.
    b) Since, in the U.S., you need a clergy memeber or a JOTP to legally officiate at a marriage, having a Rabbi on hand will do this for you.

A Kohain is a hereditary priest who fufills certain functions. This has nothing to do with being a Rabbi (of course, a Kohain can be a Rabbi).

Zev Steinhardt

47

ZEV! good to see you back! And your answers were edifying. However, I do know a few who keep kosher, observe the Law, and ect, but believe JC was the Messiah. I really do not know what to call them, they are Christians, in a way, but by the above they are also Jewish. Jewish Christians?
And I agree those who are Jewish by heritage, and maybe keep a few of the traditions, but believe in JC as part of the Trinity, are Christians not Jews (but we can add “of Jewish heritage” if they like).

One last query- is a Kohain an “ordained minister” in the eyes of the mundane law, ie would a marriage performed by him be as legal as one performed by a Rabbi? Are there any religous offices that can be filled by women?

Thanks for the info, and I’ll try to keep the “reb Zev” to a minimum (but it does have a certain ring to it). :smiley:

Finally, I have a favor to ask of you and all the other Talmudic scholars (Sdim, CKdex, CMK, Izzy, etc). In the Pit, there is a thread called “Jesus must be a real dick …” (and it’s attendant thread, “Christian Hypocrites”). Some of us have been argueing that the TITLE of the thread is insulting, and rude. I have also said, in a polite society, one respects anothers religion (does not mean you can’t question it, or argue about it, just some basic respect). I pointed out that I, for one, respect the Jewish religion, here, even tho I am not Jewish. We have been attacked for these beliefs, and ridiculed as being biased (somehow they got the idea I was Christian, go figure :smiley: ). As you fellows are UNbiased as far as Christianity goes, I believe your words of sanity & reasonableness would go far.

I will understand if you do not wish to become embroiled in a PIT thread, so will not hold it against you if you decline. But, please…
Manhattan: sorry.

48

Daniel,

As for those who still keep kosher, etc, but still believe that Jesus was the messiah, I would have to ask you to define thier level of belief:

  1. If they believe that Jesus was God (or the Son of), then they have, in fact, crossed the line into * avoda zara * (belief in another god).

  2. If they believe he was simply the messiah, (but not divine) then they may be heretics, depending on their exact beliefs. In any event, they don’t fit into mainstream Judaism.

To underscore the point: There are very few things that Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews agree on. One thing they do agree upon is that there is no room in Judaism for groups such as Jews for Jesus and the like.

While the people in these groups may be Jewish by birth (or may not… alot of them are, in fact Christians), they cannot be said to be practicing Judaism at all.

To my knowledge, in the U.S., to be recognized as a clergy member, you must have attended (or graduated from) an accredited university with a degree in divinity. A Kohen, could, of course, accomplish this. However, he does not get this by virtue of his birth.
As for the thread in BBQ Pit. I had read it previously and thought that the title was a bit too far. I’m not exactly unbiased as far as Christianity goes (too much history, I suppose), but I don’t see any point at hurling potshots at a religious figure that is respected by millions, especially when it will cause hurt.

Zev Steinhardt

49

As for those who still keep kosher, etc, but still believe that Jesus was the messiah, I would have to ask you to define thier level of belief:

  1. If they believe he was simply the messiah, (but not divine) then they may be heretics, depending on their exact beliefs. In any event, they don’t fit into mainstream Judaism.
    I agree, but the Lubavichers ARE considered Jews, despite their belief their rabbi was the Messiah? Non-mainstream, true, but still Jews, right?

As for the thread in BBQ Pit. I had read it previously and thought that the title was a bit too far. I’m not exactly unbiased as far as Christianity goes (too much history, I suppose), but I don’t see any point at hurling potshots at a religious figure that is respected by millions, especially when it will cause hurt.

So, then, will you help us out, and give us a post there?
**
[/QUOTE]

50

Note: The following post is not from me, but rather from CKDextHaven. It somehow ended in a thread of its own instead of here, so I have cut and pasted to return the comments to the proper spot. -manhattan

There are several topics already about so-called Messianic Jews. Jews for Jesus is a blatantly Christian group out to convert Jews, but there are other groups trying to form some sort of synthesis between traditional Judaism and Christianity (acceptance of Jesus as Messiah in some form).

That’s a whole different topic… and we’ve already got bunches of digressions here.

I’d like to respond to Izzy’s comments about Maimonedes… I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I thought Maimonedes was only responding to Christianity in trying to define the principles of faith of Judaism. That would be blatantly untrue. I admire Maimonedes greatly – “from Moses [Biblical] to Moses [Maimonedes], there was never one like Moses.” However, he clearly was writing in his time and influenced by (and knowledgable of) 1100 years of Christianity or so.

If he had been writing in Temple times, for instance, he would have stressed One God as opposed to Many (pagan) gods. Writing in the 1200s, he stressed One God with a Unique Unity as opposed to three-Gods-in-One. Similarly, if he’d been writing in Temple times, there would be no need to put the non-corporality of God as a principle of faith; but it was necessary when the Christian world holds God-becoming-man as a principle of faith.

He was not writing to define Judaism in a vaccuum, but against a background of Christianity and Islam. Are we agreed?

51

Tellushkin said that in Germany ‘the modern world’ for Reform Jews meant the Theatre, dinners, intelligent friends.
In Poland the ‘modern world’ would have meant associating with a bunch of goyim who regualarly became drunk and beat their wives.