"Race doesn't exist" and affirmative action: Can't have cake and eat it too

[DrDeth]

@MrDibble

What does that have to do with the conversation? We were talking about races in a scientific context, no-one here has said they don’t believe in socially-constructed race. Which is all the Census considers: "The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. "Not for the purposes of taxonomy or genetics, no.On census forms? No, they’re not asking for my biological race. If I was in the US, I’d pick “Other”, since the US Census doesn’t cover my ethnicity.No, I’m a big supporter of AA, but biological race has nothing to do with that.No, of course you can - I, for instance, am mixed. Because I’m a mix of two different distinguishable ethnicities (one of which is itself a mixed ethnicity). I just don’t mistake my ethnicity (Coloured) for my race (Human) and I recognize when people are saying race but mean ethnicity…

Yes, and those are the ones I was talking about.

Your ethnicity isnt covered? *White – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Black or African American – A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.

American Indian or Alaska Native – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

Asian – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.*

That covers all the continents, except Antarctica and Australia.

So then you can be Mixed, right? “Yeah, when I hear a person talking about “pure races” and “mixed races”, my first thought is always “That sounds so … scientific””:dubious:
.“…and I recognize when people are saying race but mean ethnicity…” Apparently not.:dubious:

[Commodore]

@tomndebb

My point on all religious points that you keep injecting into the discussion is that they are not relevant to this discussion. You have no idea regarding my understanding of Grace because I refuse to clutter up this discussion by talking about it.
I really do not care what you believe, because you have demonstrated an appalling lack of understanding regarding the facts behind this thread, history, biology, and even the religious points you keep trying to insert.

The only world I want to “push” is a world in which facts are not ignored in favor of underlying prejudices.
The rest of this rant is simply stuff that you are imagining.

You do realize, I hope, that this is self-contradictory silliness?

I am glad that you are able to get along with other people in your personal life. The rest of this diatribe is meaningless.
Your first paragraph here is utterly wrong. You have provided no evidence that you ever look at any idea, situation, or phenomenon from more than whatever preconceived notions you bring to it.
You have failed, throughout this thread, to even understand what the discussion is about, insisting from the very beginning that you have a correct idea and that you have no need to understand other perspectives.
Rather than looking at six sides of a cube, you seem to have mastered the Time Cube.

You remind my of the worst of the Nazis, pig arrogant to the core, never listen to anyone and only push there own trash and just a bastards beyond belief, not to mention no true humanity in them at all.
Such are f ing mad as a cut snake.

Race does exist as a fact.
You would not want to say African American now would you, if there is no f ing race, not to mention the truth is, if one was born in America then is in fact an American of African decent and not the other way around, but that’s the way political correctness works, it’s just all lies and stupid points like you go on about, no truly can’t you see it !
PCness comes from the Nazis and Communist, sure it’s evolved to cater with todays world so most don’t comprehend it’s intent, as it did so before.
I am sure that the people who swallowed it in the days of Nazi and Communist thought just like you do, that it’s the way of the future and all, but in the end it becomes a trap that enslaves all under a total madness and all you do is just dismiss everything I say as irrelevant, just like you just dismiss 9 month abortions as if it’s nothing, typical ! sorry to say that red flags come up everywhere with you being cold hearted to the core.

I have known many of the Jews who got out of the camps and they understand where PC is coming from, because they have heard that crap all before.

Even Putin knows where PC is coming from and warns of it’s madness, he lived that sorry evil shit.

Everything I say is just rejected by you as if it means nothing and everything you say is like big bro coming the heavy.

Where are the people on this forum that are conservative, you got rid or them eh just like the Nazis did to shut them up I suppose, I shouldn’t wonder.

[Acsenray]

The specificity of your insight is impressive. You must have had a very close relationship with the worst of the Nazis.

[Acsenray]

Oh, and burning irony, etc.

[Jonathan_Chance]

@Commodore

You remind my of the worst of the Nazis, pig arrogant to the core, never listen to anyone and only push there own trash and just a bastards beyond belief, not to mention no true humanity in them at all.
Such are f ing mad as a cut snake.

Commodore, it is not allowed to insult other posters on the SDMB. Nor is it permitted to accuse another poster of lying in Great Debates. I’m giving you a warning for this post.

You are free to argue almost any position on this message board provided you do it with civility and respect to your debate opponents.

Or, to misquote Eggsy from Kingsmen:

Fiss ain’t that kinda messageboard, bruv.

[MrDibble]

@DrDeth

Your ethnicity isnt covered? […snip…]
Black or African American – A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.[…snip…]
That covers all the continents, except Antarctica and Australia.

Someone who seems to think that all Africans are Black or White isn’t really in any position to tell me whether or not all of my ethnicity is covered by that list.

[MrDibble]

@DrDeth

Yes, and those are the ones I was talking about.

So, you were talking about the races no-one is arguing don’t exist, for why, again?

[tomndebb]

@Commodore

Race does exist as a fact.

And your evidence (rather than personal belief) for this?

@Commodore

You would not want to say African American now would you,

I don’t use the phrase, anyway, but not for the odd reasons that you oppose it.

@Commodore

if there is no f ing race, not to mention the truth is, if one was born in America then is in fact an American of African decent and not the other way around, but that’s the way political correctness works, it’s just all lies and stupid points like you go on about, no truly can’t you see it !

The social construct of race exists and I have never denied that. Your objections to “African American” are not sufficiently coherent for me to understand. As I already noted, descendants of immigrants in the U.S. are often labeled similary: Irish American, German American, Italian American, etc. Why “African American” is such a hot button issue for you I do not know.

@Commodore

PCness comes from the Nazis and Communist, sure it’s evolved to cater with todays world so most don’t comprehend it’s intent, as it did so before.

You have still never explained how the Nazi and Communist practice of making insulting a deriding terms for groups of people became a practice of insisting on polite and elevating names in PC.

@Commodore

just like you just dismiss 9 month abortions

Nothing I have ever said or posted has been tolerant of nine month abortions. Your anger is not just misdirected, it is utterly wrong.

@Commodore

Everything I say is just rejected by you as if it means nothing and everything you say is like big bro coming the heavy.

I have posted facts and occasionally provided evidence for those facts. You have posted opinions and, when asked for evidence (or even explanation) have simply gone off on a tangent (like your silly abortion accusation, above).

@Commodore

Where are the people on this forum that are conservative, you got rid or them eh just like the Nazis did to shut them up I suppose, I shouldn’t wonder.

There are many posters on this board who are conservative, some have even posted in this thread, so this claim is, again, just silly.

[Chief_Pedant]

@Kimstu

Yup, there’s all different kinds of historical disadvantage. A centuries-long history of being actual chattel slaves, with literally no more rights than livestock, creates a pretty culturally entrenched form of disadvantage.

Perhaps, but only for blacks, apparently.

Other groups which have been hugely disadvantaged historically, either in their country of origin (for immigrants) or locally (for ethnic groups such as east asians in the US) seem to snap out of those disadvantages nicely once they get opportunity equalized.

[Chief_Pedant]

@GIGObuster

The only thing that you demonstrated is that you did rely on that article many times before, even when the source already pointed to many other reasons other than IQ regarding that gap. (And even I found more from the JBHE explaining the reasons for that gap by not using genetics in previous discussions).

The fact is that you always return to repeating what was noted, but not the explanations (that do not include genetics) that even the Journal of Blacks in Higher Educations reported also then. Nowadays this is just evidence that you will never learn.

Interactive Teaching in College Science Classes Can Close the Racial Achievement Gap | The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education

Race IQ - Game Over: It was always all about wealth

There are no viable reasons referenced in that JBHE article. Feel free to advance the ones you find persuasive.

This gap never closes. Better opportunity narrows it, but even when opportunity is a huge advantage for blacks over whites, the gap is not closed. Socioeconomic circumstance and educational opportunity and parental education do not explain the black/white-asian academic scoring gap on standardized tests.

[GIGObuster]

@Chief_Pedant

There are no viable reasons referenced in that JBHE article. Feel free to advance the ones you find persuasive.

They are on the article, that you can not remember them or find the past ones mentioned to be persuasive is your problem.

@Chief_Pedant

This gap never closes. Better opportunity narrows it, but even when opportunity is a huge advantage for blacks over whites, the gap is not closed. Socioeconomic circumstance and educational opportunity and parental education do not explain the black/white-asian academic scoring gap on standardized tests.

Until the issues reported before are eliminated and there is genetic evidence of the differences in intelligence between the races that biologists tell you are not there, you have no evidence.

Why Are We Divided by Race When There Is No Such Thing?

Study Finds That Income Trumps Race in Explaining Academic Achievement Gap |...

[tomndebb]

@Chief_Pedant

Perhaps, but only for blacks, apparently.

Other groups which have been hugely disadvantaged historically, either in their country of origin (for immigrants) or locally (for ethnic groups such as east asians in the US) seem to snap out of those disadvantages nicely once they get opportunity equalized.

Not a problem. As soon as they get opportunity equalized, I am sure that black people will “snap out of it” too.

It may be reduced from previous levels, but discrimination in housing, hiring, and promotions continues, today–and SCOTUS has spent the last 20 years making it increasingly more difficult to bring discriminatory acts to trial or conviction.
Blacks are still under the Driving While Black shadow–with the added flourish of getting shot more often without reason.
Blacks are more often charged with felonies when others are charged with misdemeanors, and Blacks suffer higher terms of punishment for similar crimes.
Blacks are offered fewer options for rehabilitation than others, once imprisoned.
The cessation of targeting black drugs of choice more harshly than white drugs of choice was only eased six years ago, (and it was not equalized, only eased), and there is no evidence, yet, that law enforcement has actually adjusted its attitudes to stop targeting blacks, explicitly.

[dreamregent]

@Commodore

I have known many of the Jews who got out of the camps and they understand where PC is coming from, because they have heard that crap all before.

In Chapter 2 of Mein Kampf (pg. 56), Hitler has some interesting things to say about Jews:

Cleanliness, whether moral or of another kind, had its own peculiar meaning for these people. That they were water-shy was obvious on looking at them and, unfortunately, very often also when not looking at them at all. The odour of those people in caftans often used to make me feel ill. Beyond that there were the unkempt clothes and the ignoble exterior.

All these details were certainly not attractive; but the revolting feature was that beneath their unclean exterior one suddenly perceived the moral mildew of the chosen race.

What soon gave me cause for very serious consideration were the activities of the Jews in certain branches of life, into the mystery of which I penetrated little by little. Was there any shady undertaking, any form of foulness, especially in cultural life, in which at least one Jew did not participate? On putting the probing knife carefully to that kind of abscess one immediately discovered, like a maggot in a putrescent body, a little Jew who was often blinded by the sudden light.

In my eyes the charge against Judaism became a grave one the moment I discovered the Jewish activities in the Press, in art, in literature and the theatre. All unctuous protests were now more or less futile. One needed only to look at the posters announcing the hideous productions of the cinema and theatre, and study the names of the authors who were highly lauded there in order to become permanently adamant on Jewish questions. Here was a pestilence, a moral pestilence, with which the public was being infected. It was worse than the Black Plague of long ago. And in what mighty doses this poison was manufactured and distributed. Naturally, the lower the moral and intellectual level of such an author of artistic products the more inexhaustible his fecundity. Sometimes it went so far that one of these fellows, acting like a sewage pump, would shoot his filth directly in the face of other members of the human race. In this connection we must remember there is no limit to the number of such people. One ought to realize that for one, Goethe, Nature may bring into existence ten thousand such despoilers who act as the worst kind of germ-carriers in poisoning human souls. It was a terrible thought, and yet it could not be avoided, that the greater number of the Jews seemed specially destined by Nature to play this shameful part.

I’m not sure how one logically squares this as being an example of “PC”. It seems to me you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. Frankly, your style of speech would have fit right in on White Citizens’ Councils in the American south during the Civil Rights era. Although, they actually blamed everything only on the communists. They didn’t use the term “PC” but that’s really part of what they were railing against when they denounced “the liberals”/communists for trying to destroy the idyllic utopia of segregation.

[DrDeth]

@dreamregent

In Chapter 2 of Mein Kampf (pg. 56), Hitler has some interesting things to say about Jews:

Frankly, your style of speech would have fit right in on White Citizens’ Councils in the American south during the Civil Rights era…

You’re the one quoting Mein Kampf.:dubious:

[Ukulele_Ike]

@DrDeth

You’re the one quoting Mein Kampf.:dubious:

Yeah, nobody ever quotes the parts of Mein Kampf where Hitler talks about how much he likes playing with cute puppies.

[dreamregent]

@DrDeth

You’re the one quoting Mein Kampf.:dubious:

Commodore insinuated the Nazis were PC toward the Jews. Hitler’s rhetoric in Mein Kampf seems to demonstrate that was not the case. It’s unclear to me what you could possibly have a problem with here as I made no further allusion to Mein Kampf.

[UltraVires]

@Chief_Pedant

Human populations are not genetically homogeneous for genes, nor for average source gene pools.

What we socially construct as “race” reflects a biological reality.

*snip. This is my belief and the rest of the thread is confusing me. Yes, race is a social construct. But that social construct stems from someone’s biological and genetic makeup. So, in that sense, it is not necessarily a social construct, but does have scientific meaning.

Not that I am on board with CP’s “scientific racism” (for lack of a better term), but he notes a study that alleges no blacks would be eligible for the nation’s elite medical schools using only test scores, even controlling for socio-economic factors.

This is not a social construct. This is a valid way of testing students without regard to race, but it nonetheless excludes people of a certain genetic makeup.

I sort of understand the OP’s point: Which is it? If race is something we more or less made up, then we shouldn’t be concerned that none of these individuals are eligible for admission to elite medical schools. After all, we could construct thousands of groups of people who would never be admitted to these schools (myself included). If the label “black” is just an arbitrary distinction that we have made, then it matters not that no “blacks” would be enrolled in these schools.

The reply to that is that whether race is real or not this group called “blacks” has been discriminated against for hundreds of years, so they need a leg up. But my understanding of the study was that it controlled for social-economic factors. So, wading back into the AA debate, I would agree that if Johnny, an applicant to an elite medical school, gets a boost to compensate for his poor upbringing or attendance at a terrible inner city school that is directly related to injustice done upon his ancestors, then we are making up for the past.

If we are giving him a boost simply because he fits our arbitrary label of “black,” even if he had quality schools and a good home, then I still have a huge issue with that

[Acsenray]

@UltraVires

*snip. This is my belief and the rest of the thread is confusing me. Yes, race is a social construct. But that social construct stems from someone’s biological and genetic makeup.

Actually, not in any scientific sense. It stems from a combination of physical appearance and social (learned) conditioning.

So, in that sense, it is not necessarily a social construct, but does have scientific meaning.

It has a meaning in terms of social science, not in terms of genetic or biological science.

[rat_avatar]

@UltraVires

*snip. This is my belief and the rest of the thread is confusing me. Yes, race is a social construct. But that social construct stems from someone’s biological and genetic makeup. So, in that sense, it is not necessarily a social construct, but does have scientific meaning.

Your belief is not supported by science and is based in ignorance and/or confirmation bias.

http://physanth.org/about/position-statements/biological-aspects-race/

These old racial categories were based on externally visible traits, primarily skin color, features of the face, and the shape and size of the head and body, and the underlying skeleton. They were often imbued with nonbiological attributes, based on social constructions of race.

AAA Statement on Race - The American Anthropological Association

With the vast expansion of scientific knowledge in this century, however, it has become clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups.

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/2011/4/is-race-real

Race is folk taxonomy, not science. The variables used to organize it, such as skin color and hair texture, are arbitrary choices.

[Chief_Pedant]

“Race” is not “folk taxonomy.”

That’s just politically correct blather, meant to reassure the masses that everyone has about the same odds of the same genes from some kind of equally-accessible gene pool.

Which is silly.

If you self-identify with a race, you self-identify with a population that has, on average, a markedly different odds for any given individual to have gene variants associated with a diferent “race.”

Suppose you self-identified as “black.” Your odds of having the same amount of Neanderthal gene content as someone self-identifying as “white” are much smaller, and particularly so if you are a sub-saharan black v an American black.

It’s just silly to keep pretending that race categories which reflect continental origin are nothing but a layman’s confusion of what “real science” is.