Perfect. But on the topic of freedom of speech as it pertains to the US, remember during the election when people got arrested for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts at a speech? Remember the fuss about protesters being confined to small areas out of view of Bush and the media? How do those things fit into your definition of freedom of speech?
Consider that laws against direct incitement to violence are uncontraversially reasonable limitations to free speech. This law just pushes the line of incitement back from direct to indirect. Now, I’m pretty ambivalent towards it myself. I recognize the weight of pro-unfettered free speech arguments. However, I also recognize that encouraging people to hurt or hate their neighbours has dire social consequences. If it were up to me, I’d probably repeal the law, but it really isn’t high on my list of things about the Canadian legal system that need changing.
I dunno. Guy publicly announces that an entire race of people deserve to be exterminated, and as a consequence gets hit with a $1000 fine. Doesn’t really seem like that big a deal to me. Should it become the case that prosecutors go after jail time for trivial comments, I might change my mind. So far, though, I’m not aware of that happening.
I don’t think you’d have trouble finding quite a few Americans who would view this as unconstitutional. If the arrestees wanted to sue for having their right to free speech violated, they’d get a lot of support.
And monstro, I’m curious:
How do you reconcile
with
?
Someday it might be you out there on the edge of nowhere with the crazy viewpoint no one else wants to listen to. And guess what? Everyone else is going to be baying for your blood and trying their damndest to shut you up. Personally, I sleep a little better at night knowing that free speech applies to everybody, not just the people spouting stuff that stops short of an arbitrary government-defined border.
This is a slippery slope. I see no evidence that because Canadians have banned hate speech, they will come together and ban other speech. The law restricts certain speech (that which incites hatred and violence towards an ethic, gender, or religious) in certain venues (in front of a public audience). Everyone who’s acting like the Canadians are imprisioning people for simply voicing an opinion are being hysterical for no good reason.
We already restrict speech in the good ole US. You can find yourself in criminal court for inciting a riot with your speech. There are certain restrictions on what public employees and those in the armed services can say in public. I can get in trouble for verbally threatening someone. You can be punished for violating a gag order.
And yet the sun continues to rise every day.
I can’t run into a theater and shout “fire!” and with good reason. It’s a bit different standing in front of an audience and shouting “Kill the Jews!”, but not really that different for me to start acting like Canadians are anti-freedom. I refuse to wag my finger at them over this one little thing.
I like our constitution, but I’m not arrogant enough to believe that it’s right for everyone.
Thing is, the law in question says nothing about “crazy viewpoints no one else wants to listen to”. It’s only promotion of hatred and/or violence against groups defined by race/gender/etc. As I said, were it up to me I’d probably repeal it, but it’s just not the gross affront to freedom you’re making it out to be. It’s just one small step beyond laws against uttering threats, which I’m reasonably sure your own jurisdiction has in place. If and when it becomes clear that we’re on a slippery slope and are sliding into significant muzzling of public discourse, then I’ll be first in line to denounce the state of affairs and demand an end to it. Until then, the issues rates a big ‘meh’ from me.
I do. The Supreme Court’s Butler decision gave Canada Customs unlimited freedom to prevent any material deemed to be “degrading pornography,” in their opinion, from entering Canada. This has cost gay and lesbian bookstores millions in legal fees.
Another thing you disapprove of. Lucky he is not in Canada for you to pass a law against him saying it.
And you have the nerve to chastise anyone after a statement like this?
So, are you saying that because he is an American he should just shut up? You don’t like what he is saying so he should keep quite because he is an American?
Sure you don’t.
Well, I don’t like incoherant idiots who spout off as to what Canadians want and don’t want. I think it makes Canadians look bad and could possible damage relations with our largest trading partner, the US. And while you have the right to be an idiot, you don’t have the right to affect my livliehood, or standard of living because of it. So, I’m going to see if I can pass a law stops you from saying these sorts of things. Because while the guy you are railing against probably believes that freedom of speech is one of the basis of his country, I, being Canadian and according to you not really caring about such things, would be most gratified if you never had the opportunity to say anything ever again. I mean, all it would take is a majority opinion afterall and that’s what counts, isn’t it?
Just what are you talking about? i’m not some imbecile with a slew of errors on my part. I even capitalise at the beginning fo every sentence. You’re trying to imply that i’m an idiot. Sorry for disagreeing with you oh mighty american ambassador.
LOL. YOU, sir, are TOO funny. Spew my bigoted hate?! Do you have even ANY idea of what you’re talking about?
Let’s think about this…
I’m a canadian, who, along with MANY other canadians (it’s called the majority) who dont want nazis to have the right to go around talking about jews being a disease…that’s OUR way of doing things… so just because i don’t want to conform to your AMERICAN viewpoint about what CANADIANS do…i’m somehow a hateful bigot (that has a problem with NAZIS). Sounds something like what your “great” :rolleyes: President (hey notice how i capitalised the P in President to signify respect for another country’s leader?) said:
“you’re either with us or your with the terrorists”
oh well…terrorists…nazis…what’s the difference?
Have fun at your KKK rally.
Are you serious!? give me a goddamn break!
“I’d go down and support their free speech” okay whatever. You’re going to get up and go down to a rally and make a sign saying to leave the KKK alone because they have a right to their free speech. You wouldnt be caught dead in a situation where you look like you support the other group. Dont try to pretend you would with no problem just to make a feeble attempt at making me look wrong. I’ve never seen such a thing and im bombarded by american media.
You didnt say anything about hiding behind rhetoric…you didnt even deny. you just made some wise-ass roll eyes as if im to understand you infinite logic…sure.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: …aw man…im on a roll. i wonder if i can get a grant.
Was your smoking comment an attempt at calling me some stupid stoner pothead? more ignorance. if i opened up a thread talking about the benefits of cannabis recreationally and medicinally youd come up with more “brilliant” retorts? i bet you’d still complain even if i backed up what i said with the 50 year study done by most australian universities that completely refutes the 10 or so years of reasearch done by the dea. but americans know everything so i’ll be quiet.
You wont march in support of people you dont agree with? you dont support their freeeeedoms? what is WRONG with you? you’re bitching at me not because you love nazis or their freedom…youre bitching at me just to bitch because your first amendment says you CAN. sounds like a teenager to me.
Rule of the mob? HAH! are you trying to make me believe our system is sooooo flawed? you’re a joke. get a clue. your election process is flawed to even begin with! the electoral college you guys have set up is a sham. you guys have no real say…the casting the vote does. it’s just a matter of whether political suicide is worth it.
And look what you guys got when you let your leaders do all the thinking for you. 2000 dead troops way more iraqi casualties…a huge deficit because noone cares that bush is fucking up your future…wide open borders where my country is expected to pick up slack within the next few years…your elderly gets screwed because of social security…and so on.
Canada has problems too…every country does…so you have no right to tell me what we as canadians do is “right” or “wrong”. maybe if you stopped deluding yourself as how cool and intellectual you are you’d put down your psp and learn about how the world works…not the world according to america.
I love freedom of speech. noones contending that. what im saying is that most people from my country dont want totally unrestricted free speech…with good reason.
would you give a child whatever they want all the time? no you wouldnt…you might get along fine in your generation but future ones born into the sytem you gotta think about too.
and hell, im not even saying our way is right and yours is wrong. its our way and it just happens to differ from yours. why doesnt anybody understand that?
I like you. You’re silly.
Hold on, this guy was far from peaceful. he spouted off on hateful rants. you get to say whatever you want…that is free speech…but you hafta admit that you cant have unlimited access…there has to be limits. im not saying short limits dictated by the government…but cmon decency is the issue.
Whoever’s idea of decency isnt my place to define BUT most canadians deem decency to be not letting nazis walk around talking shit and bothering everyone.
dont assume that because i believe there should be SOME limits i must hate freedom. i just want it preserved. and im sorry if it doesnt appeal to most americans but we would like to preserve it in a certain way. go figure.
monstro is the only one ive seen so far that actually seems to grasp the concept…
IN CANADA…we do things a certain way…
IN AMERICA…you guys do a certain way…
HOW ABOUT:
When in canada…you do what canadians want…
When in America…do whatever americans want…
WOW! Such an amazing concept! HOW did i come up with it?! :smack:
**You dont know a fucking thing obviously. Makes canadians look bad…fuck that. So now any canadian that doesnt agree with letting nazis run around talking hate then we must be the bad guys. you are unbelievable! **
fuck off.
now…who’s next
Uh, you are the Nazis if you hadn’t noticed. He wants to shut the Jews up, you want to shut him up. Same difference.
Awwww. That’s so sweet schnookums. But before you can tell me to do any fucking, you’ll have to buy me dinner and take me to a movie first. Now, let me tear apart your rank stupidity, mmmkay?
Yes, whatever, because you’re a lying fuck who can’t seem to understand what my argument is. I don’t need to go anywhere to support someone’s right to march.
No, you’re a fool.
You don’t say. Moron.
Because you’re a raging asshole. You’re undeniably stupid and janus faced. We’ll get to that in a moment sugar pie.
Nope. Just to point out that you’re either a stupid asshole child, a lunatic, or both.
What is wrong with you, you dumb janus faced fuck? I don’t need to participate in someone’s activity in order to support it under law. And, you hypocrite, you don’t do so either. How do I know that? Are you part of every protest/march/demonstration that ever goes on in Canada? No? You’re full of shit? Oh… wouldn’t have guessed.
See, I don’t have to do what someone else does in order for it to be legal. I support your right to go skydiving, but I won’t go with you. I support your right to eat a sandwich, but I’m not going to try to steal a bite. I support your right to come onto a message board and vomit all over the place, but all I’m going to do is smack you with a cluestick. Schmuck.
No you dumb son of a bitch. I’m refuting your idiotic and juvenile formulation because I do love their freedom, because, it’s feedom. Their freedom is the same as my freedom is the same as yours.
Actually, I’d put money on you being the one who’s a teenager. A stupid, loud mouthed, ignorant, chip-on-his-shoulder, America hating teenager.
No, but you sure are a moron. You’ve suggested that the majority, in order to not be made uncomfortable, gets to criminalize speech. This is rule by the mob. Fool.
By the way, your America bashing rhetoric is ignorant, uninformed, bigoted, and just plain fucking stupid. Ciao ciao.
masterchief243, you know how you could really propagate the idea that Americans are assholes?
Get one of those little embroidered Stars and Stripes and sew it on your backpack when you travel.
Please.
Wow, the beginning of every sentence AND “President,” huh?
Exhibit A, from your first reply to me in this thread:
Moron. You realize what you type stays here, and we can use it to point out your stupidity later, right?
Oh, and I’m not trying to imply that you’re an idiot, fuckface, I’m SAYING you’re an idiot.