Radar

In reference to the following article:

Radar Radar

You left out one very important aspect of radar and speeding tickets: Radar is a corroborative tool, like pacing and timing between fixed points. At least in NY, a speeding charge requires that a real live human being observe the speeding vehicle, visually estimate the speed of said vehicle and then the officer may or may not corroborate the visual estimate of speed with a corroborative device. The corroborative measure is not necessary to uphold the charge.

Wait a minute, I hear you say. Do I mean to say that some Barney Fife’s WAG of my speed is enough to get a ticket? Well, yes. But it isn’t as preposterous as it sounds.

The standard set by the courts for establishing that a person is an expert in speed visual estimation is that they can visually estimate the speed of twenty vehicles within +/- 5 mph. This superhuman feat is part of the radar certification process in NY and probably many other jurisdictions. Truthfully though, give me fifteen minutes of your time, and a working radar unit, and I’ll have you doing it like a pro.

The reason for this convention is simple. The courts here have determined that it is impossible to cross examine a radar device. An inanimate object tends not to answer questions very well.

So a live human being, making a reasonable judgment using a simple and readily acquired skill is necessary to bring a charge. Further, a real live operator, aware of and correcting for the limitations of the radar device is able to ensure that erroneous readings do not become the basis for a ticket.

I, for one, am more comfortable with that than the idea that some piece of hardware, unattended and unsupervised is lifting cash from my wallet and putting points on my license.

Thanks you two (diogenes009 and QED) While I’ve never had the balls to fight a ticket, I’ve fantasized cross-examining the cop, asking at what angle did the reading take place hoping he’d stumble and I’d get off. Now I see that the only effect of the angle is to lower the reading, and the cop’s gonna be believed without the device anyways…

Now I have to find something else to fantasize about where I get off.

One thing I wonder about radar detectors is the fact that the top of the wheels of a moving car goes at twice the speed of the car. No big deal, except that some wheels have triangularly shaped spokes that are apt to reflect microwaves quite well, possibly better than the rest of the car which might be mostly non-metallic (like an older corvette) and have strongly reflecting surfaces (like the radiator) angled in such a way it does not reflect the radar beam well. So depending on the part of the wheel the radar beam reflects off of, you might get a continuum of speed readings between the actual speed and twice that speed.

A friend told me a while back that some of our newer police cruisers are equipped with laser speed detection systems, which supposedly work much more accurately than the radar-based ones. (He also said that the radar-based ones take a couple of seconds to get a reading, whereas the laser ones are instantaneous). True or not?

Another friend told me recently that some cops are “traffic cops” and others aren’t. He said that the non-traffic cops won’t pull you over even for blatant traffic violations (such as running a red light). I’d never heard of such a thing, but this friend is an, er, professional speeder. Can anyone corroborate this?

depireux–wouldn’t the continuum of speeds be from 0 to double the car’s speed? (The bottom-most spoke has a relative velocity of 0 for an instantaneous moment, while the top-most spoke is moving at double the car’s velocity.)

Ah, good point. The wheel spokes would provide a continuous background, which hopefully would not be detected as a discrete peak in the spectrum of possible doppler shifters.

I suppose it would depend on how narrow the Ka-band radar beam is at the car’s distance. 1 or 2cm might be narrow enough to focus on just one or two of the spokes of your previously-mentioned car. If it’s more like a couple of feet wide, then the reflection from the car itself would probably overwhelm the small peak from the spokes, and you’d be correct.

First of all, radar reads the greatest signal return or the fastest speed from the larger targets in some models. Individual components of the vehicle that may be creating a higher return will not be sufficiently reflective or exposed to be of any moment. One of the reasons an operator should be part of the speed enforcement equation is that an operator can identify and disregard spurious readings. Left to its’ own devices, a radar unit can give some quite disconcerting results.

As to Ladar, or laser speed measurement tools, they are becoming more common. Laser has the advantage of a smaller target area, resulting in the ability to say “That blue car is going x mph.” as opposed to “A car in that cluster is doing x mph, and based upon my training and expertise, it is the blue one.”

Radar comes in two primary packages. First there is a dash mounted model which you stick there with brackets of Velcro. The antenna is mounted on the dash, the visor or on the outside of the vehicle. The second common type is the funny looking gun type that we are familiar with. This type of package is the only type laser comes in, because you have to actually aim laser at a car as opposed to pointing it in a direction as in radar.

Also, a police car is a commercial automobile with or without added frame, suspension and powertrain hardening for heavy duty use. They also have fewer luxury features, no carpet, AM/FM only radios, etc. The agency buying the vehicle gets a fleet discount on these models and then either has the vender add radios, lights, cages, etc. or does it themselves. Many jurisdictions simply use regular stripper versions of cars right off the same lot you bought yours at.

As to traffic cops and regular cops, many cities have special traffic units that do traffic enforcement as their primary or only task. Unlike most parking bureaus, though, traffic squads are manned with real fully empowered cops. They can pinch you for any offense observed should they care to.

The reason for traffic squads is that in a busy city the patrol officers are running from complaint to complaint and do not have the time to stop you for petty traffic offenses, though they do have the authority.

Finally, to the idea of fighting a speeding ticket. When you are charged with any offense, the burden is on the prosecution to establish beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the elements of the offense. In a speeding trial the prosecutor has to establish that: 1) The defendant was operating the motor vehicle, 2) That the vehicle was operated in excess of a properly posted speed limit. (Signage or other legally required notice properly in place. The limit properly filed as law by the jurisdiction.) 3) That the method of speed detection was proper. (Visual estimation, certification of corroborative devices, etc.)

As the defendant you need to challenge the elements of the offense. You will get nowhere arguing about fairness, what a great guy you are, how busy you are, what a jerk the officer was or that you were rushing to get home to use the bathroom. You have to focus on the elements of the offense. A common mistake is that people get upset and stop thinking. Remember, the officer existed before you first saw him. He may have had to go some distance to catch up with you and find a safe place to pull you over. Just because you were speeding on one street doesn’t mean you have to be stopped on that street, let alone in that jurisdiction.

I respect people who have the courage to fight a ticket. I just wish they had a better idea of what they were doing.

diogenes009–Many thanks for sharing your knowledge and answering my questions.

Although you said that the smaller parts which could give false readings aren’t really of any worry, do you know what the angular width of the Ka-band radars used is? On average, how far away do traffic radars usually measure speed? (And consequently, how wide is the average beam when it hits my car?)

Radar generally is the same regardless of band. The antenna emits a cigar shaped signal path that goes quite far. I’m a bit rusty on specs, but I believe it can give effective readings out to a mile or more in open terrain. At that distance the antennas aim would need to be pretty good. You’d be getting to the thin end of the cigar. Where most radar is done is in the quarter mile range or less, where the beam would easily splash over your vehicle and the ones around it. That is one of the lasers advantages, the beam width is a couple feet, point it at the car you want a speed for.

What about these so-called RADAR jammers that I have heard and read about lately? These things supposedly jam the radar cop’s signal so that he either gets no reading or a false reading; thus allowing the speeding to go free.

Do these things really work? And if so, how?

It’s technically possible to jam radar, but it’s very easy to determine the source of the jamming. And I believe that in most jurisdictions, the jamming is itself illegal, and probably carries a stiffer penalty than the speeding would have in the first place. Add to that the fact that the cop has other methods of determining your speed, not all of which can be jammed (it would be exceedingly difficult to jam a laser, and impossible to jam pacing, reference marks, or visual estimation), and a radar jammer turns out to be a phenomenally bad idea.

And that’s without getting into the question of whether or not the Board will allow you to talk about how to break the law. :wink:

I liked the article by Q.E.D. It was informative. It wasn’t preachy, or filled with assumptions. I suppose it could have focussed more upon the practical aspects of radar units, rather than a lengthy explanation of doppler effect speed measurement, but still, a good article.

I’ve never understood those who think it is somehow “unfair” that the police resort to radar to establish speed limit violations… :dubious:

Radar detectors are legal in Alberta (or at least they were 10 years ago when I lived there). Instead of radar, there are lines painted on the highway perpendicualr to the direction of travel. These lines are such-and-so distance apart. Cops in airplanes time how long it takes you to reach the next line, then radio down to the waiting cop with your vehicle’s description (probably licence plate too).

I’ve always heard that the other actors were really happy when he left the show.

What?

Oh, nevermind.

What about calculus? Any competent calc 1 student can tell you about the differential mean value theorem. If a toll road (like, say, the New Jersey Turnpike) were to synchronize its clocks and mark the time in and time out of any vehicle, measure that against the distance between entry and exit points, and determine an average speed of greater than the maximum speed limit on the thoroughfare (hey, give it +10mph margin of error if you want), then we know that at some point the vehicle was exceeding that speed. Would you have the same complaint with that automated method?

Isn’t the real question: Why haven’t they done so already? I suspect they fear a significant loss of toll revenue if they slow the traffic speed to the point where other routes are more attractive. Besides, with the small amount of time saved per trip by speeding to the extent most people do so, a pit stop for fluid exchange would move most motorists back into the legal time frame.

And no, since the time/distance scenario is less fraught with error than speed measurements using radar, it wouldn’t bother me as much. However, I would like to point out that each time I get my Easypass statement I have to call and dispute at least one toll charge. There is a difference between theory and successful execution.

Largely it’s because of a tremendous public antipathy to the encroachment of their “right to speed”. The voters in NJ wouldn’t stand for it.

The problem with fighting speeding tickets is that in most cases you’re guilty and fighting it just prolongs the agony. The real problem, it seems to me, is that bureaucrats and politicians use traffic enforcement for revenue. In order to maximize revenue posted speed limits are often set about 10 miles below what a reasonable speed for that road would be, assuming a reasonable speed is that which about 85% of cars on that roadway are traveling at any given time.

I think instead of fighting the radar gods a better way for citizens to spend their time is to let their elected representatives know they don’t approve of using traffic enforcement as a revenue measure and want it changed.

I knew someone would finally post this sort of argument.

Despite what many would like to believe, with the exception of a few usually well-known locations, city and county (not to mention state) jurisdictions post speed limits on the basis of safety issues, not revenue desires. They have a whole kit and kaboodle of criteria for determining such things, just like they do for deciding whether or not to put a traffic control device in, etc. They have developed these criteria as a response to tort lawsuits which find liability on the part of the governmental entity for failing to approach safety issues in an appropriate way.

The reason that most people go faster than the speed limit isn’t that the limit is usually inappropriately slow. Rather, it is because we are conditioned to think that speed limits should be exceeded, without any sense of guilt in the behaviour. When we see “45” we think “55,” safe in the “knowledge” that there must first of all be some sort of “fudge safety factor” built into the speed limit (that is, it can’t be set at the highest safe speed because that would open the government to potential liability), and second of all that traffic control units allow a certain leeway (usually 5-10 mph) before they get upset at you and ticket you. In our fast-paced society, the concept of actually limiting ourselves on the basis of what someone else, especially the government, wants us to do is most repugnant.

You have the issue of speed limits quite backwards, I am afraid. Indeed, in California, you are specifically backward: one of the criteria for setting a limit higher than it is already set is a traffic survey showing that a significant percentage (I forget the exact amount) travels at a rate of speed 10 MPH or more than the posted limit. Traffic along California Hwy. 1 near Santa Cruz was surveyed for a potential limit increase in the 80’s or 90’s while I lived near there. Why is this a criterion? Because it is seen as a potential safety issue if you post a limit that slows the few law-abiding citizens down significantly compared to traffic flow.

Near where I live, there is a road that connects two main E-W roads. It is mildly curvy, deceptively so, actually. It is posted 35; almost no one does that speed. People complained about it all the time to the township and county; accusations of revenue enhancement were common. Well, they were, that is, until the teenager crashed and killed himself by driving a mere 10 mph over the posted limit, in good weather, during the day. :frowning:

Several have referred to the revenue-generation aspects of speeding tickets; I don’t refute that cities enjoy that extra revenue. However, except perhaps in the smallest of towns, individual officers do not factor that in to their activities at all - the revenue realized from a ticket is so far removed from the officer that he perceives no direct benefit.

I believe the bigger problem with speed enforcement in general lies with the “quota” factor. Let me be clear: never ever have I been told that I must or should write X number of tickets per shift or per month (on the other hand, I’ve never worked more than a few days on a traffic squad). Regardless, though, there is a belief that writing some citations shows some initiative and at least a base-level of proactive enforcement. It just so happens that writing speeding and expired-tag citations are the quickest, simplest, and most straightforward. Thus, an officer can take out a RADAR gun for a day and get half-a-month’s expected citation output.

Where does that officer go to run RADAR? Why, the streets that have the highest number of speeders per minute. It seldom (I’m generalizing a lot here) has to do with speed-related danger - it is about easy enforcement. Unless acting on citizen complaints, most officers will go to where to pickin’s are easiest. No officer wants to sit idle for an hour waiting for that one hotshot.

Without question speed increases the severity of an accident, but it is seldom the cause of an accident. I truly believe we need to put away our RADAR guns and start cracking down on aggressive driving. In my area, it is common for cars to follow one-car-length behind at 75mph, and for cars to cross four lanes of traffic in 1/10 of mile (without signalling, of course). I believe these are much greater causes of serious accidents than simply speeding.

The author mentioned that both officers and devices are certified and that devices are regularly retested. That is certainly true in the state where I worked, and I hope it is now nationwide, but I am not certain. Certainly officers can make mistakes (I always erred on the side of non-action if in doubt), and in heavy traffic situations it is frighteningly easy. Until vehicle “black boxes” become common, I don’t know of any reliable way to prevail in court if you are the victim of such a mistake. The advisability and practicality of fighting a ticket varies widely based on local practices and judges. For us, sometimes the officer can’t make it to court, allowing an easy defendant victory. For some judges, it isn’t difficult to make a reasoned argument that casts just enough doubt in the judge’s mind to win. Other judges, though, won’t hear of it.

One thing I have found, though, right or wrong: having an attorney with you strongly tilts things in your favor, even if the attorney doesn’t have much to offer in the way of defense.