Rand Paul and Chris Christie believe vaccines should be optional

[BrainGlutton]

@XT

I hope he loses a bunch of his patients at this point…

Me too, but only in the sense that they get fed up and go elsewhere. Not what a doctor “losing his patients” generally means . . .

[CGav8r]

@adaher

I’ll concede that. I could parse his statement to claim that this isn’t what he was trying to say, but I think he knew what he was doing there. But I still wouldn’t classify him as an anti-vaxxer, since like the President, he believes that vaccines should not be mandatory. And he supports vaccinating and got his own kids vaccinated.

He can be fairly accused of pandering to the anti-vaxxers, but again, it doesn’t seem like that makes him much different from the President on that issue either.

Not much different in that both were accused of pandering, or are you saying the President pandered to anti-vaxxers?

[Steve_MB]

@CGav8r

are you saying the President pandered to anti-vaxxers?

I’m waiting for a cite on that.

(Oh, and cites pre-dating the discrediting of the Wakefield fraud don’t count – to be properly comparable to the Christie/Paul/etc follies, any such statement must be in flat contradiction to the firmly established scientific consensus as it existed at the time the statement was made.)

[Terr]

@Knorf

That is untrue. Read Rand Paul’s quote again: “I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.”

Rand Paul is explicitly linking vaccines and mental disorders.

No, he isn’t. He is stating a fact. The “linking” is done by people who are reporting about his statement.

In fact, let’s go to Rand Paul himself to see what he meant:

“I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not allege causation,” Paul said in a statement. “I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated. In fact today, I received the booster shot for the vaccines I got when I went to Guatemala last year.”

[Steve_MB]

@Terr

@Knorf

That is untrue. Read Rand Paul’s quote again: “I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.”

Rand Paul is explicitly linking vaccines and mental disorders. It’s pure weaseling to say he isn’t.

No, he isn’t. He is stating a fact. The “linking” is done by people who are reporting about his statement.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

“I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not allege causation,” Paul said in a statement.

Move over, Janus, Harvey Dent, and Pushme-Pullyu – we have a new icon for two-facedness.

[Terr]

@Steve_MB

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes as much as you want, the truth is the truth.

As I said, after years and years of Obama weaseling in his statements, his followers just cannot understand how someone, unlike their idol, can actually say what he means and not try to imply something he didn’t say.

[CGav8r]

Me: “I’ve heard that many kids who have read those Harry Potter books begin practicing witchcraft and worship the devil!”

Reporter: “Wait, you believe that reading Harry Potter makes kids worship Satan?”

Me: "No, of course not. How did you come to that conclusion? I’m just stating a fact of what I heard. "

[YogSothoth]

Just admit it Terr, Rand Paul was linking autism to vaccinations. I’m perfectly honest when I say that we won’t think less of him than we already do if he confesses.

[Knorf]

@Terr

No, he isn’t. He is stating a fact. The “linking” is done by people who are reporting about his statement.

:rolleyes:

Your imitation of a weasel isn’t particularly convincing.

[Little_Nemo]

@Terr

You can roll your eyes as much as you want, the truth is the truth.

As I said, after years and years of Obama weaseling in his statements, his followers just cannot understand how someone, unlike their idol, can actually say what he means and not try to imply something he didn’t say.

I’d attempt to argue with you. But I can’t think of anything to write that would discredit your posts more than your posts discredit themselves.

[Xema]

From a WH press briefing on Jan 30, in response to a question about the recent spread of measles:

@John Earnest

Well, the President certainly believes that these kinds of decisions are decisions that should be made by parents, because ultimately when we’re talking about vaccinations, we’re typically talking about vaccinations that are given to children.

I’m unclear how Christie’s position differs from this - can someone explain?

[Fuzzy_wuzzy]

@Knorf

That is untrue. Read Rand Paul’s quote again: “I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.”

Rand Paul is explicitly linking vaccines and mental disorders. It’s pure weaseling to say he isn’t.

As someone who’s friend received compensation due to a vaccine leading to health problems in her child(and had to sign a confidentiality agreement) I think you are being rather too dismissive.

[XT]

@Terr

You can roll your eyes as much as you want, the truth is the truth.

As I said, after years and years of Obama weaseling in his statements, his followers just cannot understand how someone, unlike their idol, can actually say what he means and not try to imply something he didn’t say.

Yet Obama has come out and quite explicitly said he thinks parents should immunize their children. Which makes all the difference, to be honest. Show me a similar urging from Paul (especially before all of this blew up) and I’ll agree that they are in a similar boat on this.

[Terr]

@XT

Yet Obama has come out and quite explicitly said he thinks parents should immunize their children. Which makes all the difference, to be honest. Show me a similar urging from Paul (especially before all of this blew up) and I’ll agree that they are in a similar boat on this.

Kinda like:

“I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated.”

[XT]

@Terr

Kinda like:

“I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated.”

Like you said, kinda, but not exactly as active as the Presidents statement. He IS clearly weaseling on this…if he feels that it’s safe enough to get his own children vaccinated then he should do more to set the record straight on the alarmist things he was quoted as saying. I’m all for giving parents a choice on this (with the caveat that they shouldn’t be allowed to have their kids attend public school or other public functions without that shot record and should be liable for their ridiculous and dangerous stance if their decision is purely voluntary instead of based on necessity), and even if I weren’t I could see how it would be politic to say it, but his statements were beyond that pale and skating close to a standard anti-vaxer position. If he didn’t mean it that way it’s easy enough to clear up with a concise statement. Doesn’t seem he’s done that as yet.

[Knorf]

@Fuzzy_wuzzy

As someone who’s friend received compensation due to a vaccine leading to health problems in her child(and had to sign a confidentiality agreement) I think you are being rather too dismissive.

So much for confidentiality.

Incidentally, you might want to look up the scientific validity of anecdotes, especially unsupported.

[Defensive_Indifference]

@Xema

From a WH press briefing on Jan 30, in response to a question about the recent spread of measles:
I’m unclear how Christie’s position differs from this - can someone explain?

@WH Press Conference transcript

Q Does the President think this should be federally mandated, vaccines across the country for this set and other sets of childhood diseases?

MR. EARNEST: Well, Major, we do have a tradition and there’s a long track record in this country of these kinds of health issues being administered by state and local officials. This is something that we went through at the end of last year related to Ebola, that the monitoring that was in place was something that was strongly recommended by federal public health officials at the CDC, but ultimately, we are relying on state and local partners to carry out that monitor.

And that is a good indication of how federal public health officials and state and local public health officials work together; that the federal government can be relied upon for good scientific advice – there’s a whole wealth of institutional knowledge that’s contained at the CDC, that there are significant resources that are devoted by the federal government to doing the kind of research at the NIH and other places where we can make sure that the best scientific advice that is known to man can be made available to state and local public health officials – and ultimately that’s the way that this system has operated for generations.

Q Should it change?

MR. EARNEST: Well, what I also know is true is that there is a lot of case law around this, and this is something that people have challenged I think on both sides of this issue. And as I mentioned earlier, I did have a chance to speak to the President about this issue shortly before the briefing, and he was clear that we don’t need a new law, we need people to exercise common sense.

Q The federal government does not need to establish a mandate for vaccines, just recommendations and advice to states and parents on the facts?

MR. EARNEST: I think what the President is saying is we shouldn’t have to, that the science is clear. And it is irresponsible for people to not get their children vaccinated – not only because it puts their children at risk of getting the measles, it also puts at risk other children in their community, if it’s infants who are too young to get the vaccine, or children who have compromised immune systems that they can’t get the vaccine. So people need to take responsibility – not just for their kids, but for the kids in their community.

Press Briefing by Press Secretary Josh Earnest, 2/3/2015 | whitehouse.gov (my bold)

Is this Christie’s view as well? We don’t need new laws, but you’re an idiot if you don’t vaccinate?

[tomndebb]

@Knorf

Your imitation of a weasel isn’t particularly convincing.

Your personal attack is not appropriate to this forum.

Knock it off.

[ /Moderating ]

[elucidator]

Well, bad enough if someone is an idiot for their own children, but this is a public health issue. In a situation where almost all the children who can be vaccinated are vaccinated, there is much less risk for those who cannot, they are much less likely to encounter an infected person.

So, while I would hope that simply supplying the information publicly would solve the problem, if it doesn’t, then we have to go the oppression by Big Government route, because however dreadful Big Government may be, its not as bad as dead kids. And anybody who asks for a cite on that gets a black eye.

[Xema]

Here’s what I’ve been able to find as the quote from Christie:

Mary Pat and I have had our children vaccinated and we think that it’s an important part of being sure we protect their health and the public health. I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well, so that’s the balance that the government has to decide.

From John Earnest, on behalf of the WH, we have:

people need to take responsibility – not just for their kids, but for the kids in their community

and

the President certainly believes that these kinds of decisions are decisions that should be made by parents

There’s plausibly a difference in emphasis, but I can see no fundamental difference in these positions.