"Rape culture" and "date rape" debate

Great Debates
281

I specifically stated that the description I gave did technically constitute rape when I asked for responses to my actual query: would you consider it just to convict in that scenario?

Frankly I am floored by yours and others readiness to do so, absolutely floored, and it vividly illustrates the yawning chasm that lies between our viewpoints. I find nothing less than absurd to consider a situation like that rape or sexual assault, or if it technically fits the description, it’s certainly not sufficiently severe to warrant an actual complaint resulting in an arrest and prosecution. Then to think that if it ever did get that far you and others would apparently not even hesitate to convict, with all that entails, leaves me stunned.

But I do have to admire the effectiveness of the 3rd wave feminist drumbeat…the message has been absorbed and incorporated, no doubt about that.

I think that sexual assault is a really big gun to use to pick off a few little bugs, and the result of such a view is ultimately more negative for more people of both sexes.

Camille! Sistah! :cool:

I’m a baby of the first wave, I think, born in '58, but my mom (born in '23) was the daughter of a suffragette, so I came up in the 60’s and '70’s with it in my marrow, and it did not look or sound like this, thats for damn sure.

I have only recent been fully enlightened to this culture of fragility, this “triggering” business… Seriously? This is feminism? I’m gobsmacked.

I know that I was kinda unusually…hmm, can’t decide on a word I like. Tough doesn’t really express it. But this is who I was: i grew up in Hollywood, first of all, and my closest friends today were my closest friends then, and we all agree that flashers were so common they were practically an expected part of the landscape. By the time we were 12 we had it wired up that the best way to respond to the dick-waving asshole that sat down in our movie row was to point and laugh. Bam, he’s gone.

When I was just a wee thing of 6, yes, 6, i was actually molested. Very mildly: he told me there were toys in the laundry room. And I remember perfectly thinking that my mom told me never to accept candy, but toys never came up. So I followed him into the tiny apartment building laundry, and he proceeded to teppshow me a trash can lud and tell me it was a frisbee…uh oh… This could maybe not be good…so he starts asking ne questions about naked men, etc… I lie and deny all knowledge, and yeah, i was freaking the fuck out in my head. Then he pulls down my bathing suit and takes a look… I am crying, not happy, he whips out his dick, waves it at me a little then keeps his promise and lets me go.

I ran screaming and hysterical the four blocks home, my oldest sister is telling my other sisters to “check mom’s heart!” Cuz she was recovering from a heart attack. The cops come, my dad comes, we ride in the cop car and I show them where it happened and my hand to god by that evening I was totally basking in all the tumultuous attention, the thing that caused it almost an afterthought. Next day at school with my girlfriends (my two besties were both 9, I was mature, they were not) I was very exciting with my tales of molestation. Ooooh…ahhhh. Totally over it. I was 6.

So yeah, I find (some!!, not all!!) of these concerns over these fragile women a bit alien, to say the least.

282

And, later, you said something different: “So, did it become rape once she told him to stop and he didn’t?”

Here you’re asking about what is and isn’t rape, not about what is and isn’t just.

Wait, you just made a point that you’re trying to talk, not about what is and isn’t rape, but about what is and isn’t just.

What’s your line of demarcation between justly punishable rape and unjustly punishable rape? (I know “lines of demarcation” can be fuzzy, I don’t mean to demand an oversimplification.) And to the extent that making that judgment call may require not so much the formulation of a legal rule but the applicaiton of professional judgment, what basis do you have for trusting the professional judgment of the people likely to be in the position of exercising that judgment?

Why not just make it simple (“if she says no and you have sex with her, you are raping her*”) and let the ones with a direct stake in the situation (i.e. those who may need to keep this principle in mind while deciding what to do during a sexual encounter) do the figuring? Does this not strike you as much more conducive legitimizing women’s control over their own sexuality?

From your comments further down, it looks like you’re worried about the consequences of lumping in all rapes as though they required equally severe consequences for the rapist. I think that’s a legitimate worry. In my imagined perfect world, a moment of weakness after a whole lot of enthusiastic encouragement from the rape victim would not be treated as severely as a prolonged sex act with the victim constantly signalling unwillingness. But I still call it “just” (maybe with an asterisk maybe) even in the actual world for a person in the former scenario to be convicted of rape, because I simply don’t trust anyone but the victim to decide how severe the act “really” is. We may get to the point where we can do that without committing an injustice against women (and other rape victims) as a whole, but we’re not there right now.

*This is intended as a sufficient condition for rape, not a definition of it.

283

Hey, I’m a '58 baby too! You’re right, we were born before the second wave, but technically we’re second wavers (I feel younger already!). Thing is, I don’t think we can consider the second wave stuff as a done deal yet, especially with the current backlash so prevalent on social media. I also think a lot of the third wave issues aren’t specific to women, and fighting them under the banner of feminism creates more problems, and actually increases the backlash against the second wave gains. But yeah, I am amazed at some of what the third wavers are banging on as well.

We could probably do that Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen bit exchanging childhood sex perv encounter stories: But you try telling young people today that, they won’t believe you!

284

We definitely see things differently. Again, I appreciate your sharing.

285

Yeah, todays kids get all their pervs via the internet. Nyuck nyuck nyuck.

286

I think it’s technically rape, the same way statutory rape is technically rape even when it’s consensual and no one thinks to bring charges, the same way getting shoved on the subway is technically assault but most people shrug it off as part of living in a crowded city, the same way two people can get into a fistfight and end up having a drink together rather than pressing charges or shooting in self defense.

As I said earlier, I’d be surprised if a DA would go forward with that hypothetical rape scenario if the woman was honest about what happened: Yeah, I consented and we were having intercourse but then I finished first and he didn’t so I wanted him to stop and said stop and he didn’t stop immediately but then he finished after about 30 seconds.

Do you know how many women have been in that situation? Can you imagine how overwhelmed the courts would be if all those cases went forward?

287

Well, to say it would be “just” for such a case to be prosecuted is not to say that all DAs everywhere should start seeking out such cases to prosecute.

I typed some more here but realized I’m just saying what I said in my last post to Stoid so I’ll just leave it at that.

288

Sure. But we’re not in that discussion. We’re in the discussion about whether, in the abstract, it’s OK that the woman says don’t do this, and he does it. Or, I suppose, whether it’s not OK but also isn’t fair to call it a sexual assault. I don’t think it’s a point in favor of Stoid’s argument that there would never be a conviction under those circumstances.

I also don’t think it makes any sense at all that the “fragility of women” is somehow perceived to be an issue under discussion. It’s not like I’m going to tell you that the exact same set of facts, except with a guy penetrating another guy, is any different at all.

And, again, I don’t think Stoid has any idea what happened in that bedroom, and I think the story she’s telling is essentially a political opinion, so I don’t think it matters at all to the larger discussion whose definition of sexual assault it fits. It’s like arguing about whether or not it’s “just” that Christians or white men or rich people are persecuted in America based on somebody’s anecdote.

289

How odd that you would think I don’t know what happened in the story of my friend… Why would you think that? You think my friend spun a tale? Why in the world would that be the case?:confused:

Regarding how female fragility bears: these are modern feminism’s issues and arguments we’re discussing. Modern feminism takes the position, without explicitly stating it this way, that female victims of just about any sort of sexual assault are likely as not to be completely shattered by it, possibly forever, judging from rhetoric I have encountered, and it is the world’s job to respect and honor that shattering by tiptoeing around victims in various ways, beginning with not daring to question the victim in a manner which could be construed by her as in any way doubtful about her story and proceeding from there.

You know, fragile.

290

Well, I didn’t read Stoid’s hypothetical as a political statement. I responded to it as a generational difference, at first. And I thought it was relevant to the larger discussion of rape culture and date rape.

Here’s what you said:

This is why I first responded to Stoid’s post: The point where it becomes rape in a date rape scenario has changed in my lifetime - not necessarily legally - but in how a woman perceives it (as rape or not). As I said, I experienced that (revised) hypothetical, and many other women I knew did as well, and back in the day, for the most part, we didn’t think of it as rape. Or at the very least, it was not as “clear cut” as you and Frylock see it now.

And even if we were angry, or felt bad about the experience, it wouldn’t have occurred to us to think of the man as a rapist. An inconsiderate jerk, yes. Or a drunken fool, or someone we lost respect for, or weren’t attracted to anymore. It wouldn’t occur to us to press charges, and we wouldn’t think it was “just” for the man to be convicted or go to prison. Worst case scenario, we’d seek out a divorce attorney, not a prosecutor.

That’s also why I tend to have more patience when an older guy criticizes feminism. Once our consciousness was raised, they became rapists, and of course that’s upsetting because they didn’t think of it that way either. Technically, yes, it was rape, even then, but what changed was a woman’s perspective - and society’s acceptance of that perspective.

Now, many men have accepted it since then, but not all of them, even the younger ones, and now that I’ve thought about it, some women haven’t either.

I think this is part of what perpetuates the rape culture and date rape problems, and often leads to the cases we’ve discussed in previous threads. For example: The Occidental College case - where Jane Doe had to be convinced by an activist that she was raped, after the fact - and it led to John Doe being expelled, even though there wasn’t enough evidence to bring criminal charges. John Doe didn’t perceive it as rape, and neither did Jane Doe, until she was convinced by someone else it was “clear cut”.

I can see both sides of this. But like Stoid, I don’t have a clear answer to your question about at what point it should be perceived as rape.

And I’m not sure that it’s helpful to traumatize a woman by convincing her she was a victim of a crime, if she didn’t feel that way in the first place.

291

I wouldn’t have said it’s “clear cut” for all people at all times. What I’m saying is, given the contemporary definition of rape that we are all familiar with, it’s clear-cut that the described acts are rape. There’s no subtlety about it–it’s a simple implication of an easy definition. As to it being “clear cut” that it would be “just” for the guy in these scenarios to be prosecuted, I meant “clear cut” in the sense of “it is so obvious what our answer would be it is amazing that you’re even asking.” I understand that intuitions differ–and like Camille I can even sympathize with many people of “the old guard” (so to speak) given that they’ve been taught their whole life to think about it in a different way. But to ask here on the Dope, given the history of these discussions, where the one doing the asking has been a frequent participant in those discussions, “do you think these scenarios are rape,” seems to me very surprising. But, having said that, my “wtf” reaction was a little harsh I guess. People often don’t realize what others think is obvious even after a great deal of discussion. I know that.

Let me clarify something about the “would it be just” question. Some comments above seem to assume I think every person raped as per these scenarios should seek prosecution and feel severely violated. But I don’t think that. I think responses all the way from huge trauma to mild annoyance all make perfect sense.

It’s up to the person who was raped to decide how to react to what happened to them.

292

OK. I have no ability to participate in that conversation, of course; I don’t know how “a woman” perceives it, although I imagine there’s kind of a broad range of possibilities there.

I did not read the thrust of Stoid’s argument to be about whether it was important that the subjective perception of that woman would or would not be that the person was “a rapist.” I read it to be about whether or not it is just for us, as a society, to say OK, she said stop, he had the opportunity to stop, he didn’t stop… we have a word for this.

I think that’s an easy question. It seems to me to be a pretty convoluted train of thought to say that because historically women didn’t tell themselves they were victims of sexual assault, in an environment where nobody considered them victims of sexual assault even though we now, looking back, are pretty generally convinced they were victims of sexual assault and that it was a gross injustice that this environment existed at all, it’s now imposing a new kind of trauma on victims to recognize the fact of the violation that occurs in these scenarios. That seems to me to be more the solution to a problem than a problem in its own right.

293

I think that you probably can hypothesize along with me some ways that the story you present could be something other than a 100% objective and accurate recounting of what everyone inside the room experienced.

294

You need to back up: on what basis are you asserting that the current view is the “correct” view? And by basis, I mean something other than the relentless rhetoric. I challenge you to independently explain and support the idea that women who did not feel or believe they were sexually assaulted were actually in the dark about their experiences and responses, AND independently explain why encouraging women to this “correct” view is ultimately better for society?

Much of the way we feel and think about most things is shaped by our culture, whatever it is. Food is a good example because it is also a core biological drive and we arrive in the world with a lot of wiring already in place, such as prefering sweet food and disliking bitter. (Most sweet foods are highly nourishing, many bitter foods are poisonous) But the culture we are raised in has a huge influence on us. We are wired to find rotten food disgusting (because it is often indicative of something unwholesome), yet Scandinavians consider “fermented” fish delightful.

My point is this: many, many instances of human sexual encounters include a wide variety of less than ideal behaviors and activities. The vast majority of people in the world can probably agree on a pretty clear line beyond which everything that happens is a gross personal violation of an individual’s body, dignity, etc. etc. All stranger rape falls into that category, for instance. No one needs to be encouraged to understand that waking up to a person you’ve never seen before fingering your genitals, even if they are doing so with extreme gentleness, even if you LIKE it, means you are being raped, violated. That’s just a no brainer and almost every human culture recognizes it and mostly always has.

Outside of stranger rape, however, human cultures across history have been all over the map with it.

So I’d like you to think on it and tell me why you believe (if you genuinely do, perhaps you’ve just absorbed the propaganda without close examination) it is better to encourage women to feel victimized, if the alternative is what I (and Camille, and many others) grew up believing and being, and that is to be a mature woman of confidence who is comfortable in her skin, comfortable saying what she wants and doesn’t want, and comfortable calling a man out for being a fucking asshole when he acts like one, walking away with just good hash material for your next blabfest with your friends?

Think of what I said earlier about flashers: we were savvy kids and we weren’t remotely interested in agreeing to be terrorized by an uninvited penis being whacked in our direction, fuck that. It’s a human male getting all excited about the toy between his legs (ew), not a serial killer holding a knife to our throats. But some people would definitely consider it “better” for us to react as though the two things were equivalent, which boggles my mind. What in the world can be good about teaching women, teaching anyone to feel afraid, victimized, helpless, fragile? Exactly who is that a win for, apart from the delusional flasher, who would be SO stoked to Display His MIghty Penis and Behold How it Causes Girls To Tremble and Flee?

295

Stoid, imagine two scenarios, built from the ones you gave.

Start with your second–where a man keeps going after she tells him to stop, because he’s pissed off he can’t ejaculate. Imagine the woman, the next day, feels annoyed, and rolls her eyes as she recounts the story.

I assume you think that reaction is fine. Am I right to assume that?

What do you think I would think about that reaction, out of curiosity?

Here’s the second scenario: Exactly the same as the one above, but the next day, the woman is recounting the incident in tears, and expresses a feeling that she has been deeply violated. Let’s stipulate that she’s not particularly in touch with contemporary ideas about rape. This is just how she feels. No one told her to, or that she should, feel that way–she just does.

Do you think there’s something faulty about her reaction? Or does her reaction make as much sense, in its own way, as the first reaction discussed above? Maybe “understandable” is the word to use here. Do you think the reaction is understandable, reasonable, etc?

296

I have no interest in teaching women to feel afraid or victimized or helpless, and I’m unaware of any feminists who do want to teach women to feel this way. I (and most feminist, as I understand them) are very interested in encouraging women who do feel victimized to speak up about it if they want, and we encourage society to take the statements of women who say they have been victimized seriously (which doesn’t mean automatic acceptance), and we encourage society and law enforcement to treat such accusations seriously and pursue with seriousness allegations of rape and sexual assault.

I don’t believe that taking such accusations seriously, and advocating that women who feel victimized be encouraged to speak up and be taken seriously, means that women will feel victimized by events that they otherwise would not have been concerned about.

297

Of course it’s fine, if it is her organic reaction. But if it is not her natural response, why in god’s name do some people think it’s a good idea to convince her that it should be?

298

I believe it’s called the law of unintended consequences.

299

Also, there’s a whole lot of territory between speaking up to the law and society about being sexually assaulted and “events they wouldn’t be concerned about”.

You can be pissed, shaken, distraught, disturbed by the way a man you decided to sleep with has treated you in the context of your consented-to sexual activities without having to “speak up and be taken seriously” - because that’s basically code for saying you were raped, and the man you chose to sleep with turning out to be a selfish, insensitive dick doesn’t mean he raped you.

300

I think we already established that feelings are valid, whether we would respond the same way or not.

Beyond that, I don’t think your scenario is relevant to this discussion, because the question is about contemporary ideas about rape, and how they might influence a woman’s perception of the encounter, whether or not she is directly told how she should feel.

A few posts earlier, I gave Jimmy Chitwood an example: The Occidental College case, which was also mentioned in the previous feminism thread. In that case, the Jane Doe was counseled by Assistant Professor Danielle Dirks, who was the “prime mover behind the Title IX filing and a nationally prominent activist on campus sexual assault”, according to the investigative report:

I think we all agreed in previous threads that there are radical feminists out there, and while we may not agree with them or feel responsible for their actions, they do influence a lot of women, particularly college aged women, who are more likely to be involved in date rape situations.

Some of the old school feminists have spoken out about this, and were accused of “victim blaming”. As an old school feminist myself, I don’t like a lot of what I’m seeing on social media, and I think a discussion about rape culture should also consider the possibility that we are overcompensating in some ways and creating a culture of victimization. This wasn’t the intended outcome when we took up these battles back in the day, and I worry about the effects of the backlash if rational feminists don’t address it.