''Rape Culture''

First of all, let’s get this out of the way right now.

You weren’t joking about rape in a rape thread. You were joking about men who direct romantic comedies in a rape thread. It was a mildly insulting comment (to men who make romantic comedies), but I would not for a second label it ‘‘trivializing rape with humor’’ as some people in that thread perceived it. I’m not giving you an A+ for comedic timing or anything, I’m just sayin’.

I think humor does have its place when we deal with trauma. But I think the reality is that people are going to draw that line in all sorts of different places depending on the kind of person they are AND where they are at in the process of recovery.

Take the Robin Quivers example I used – at a Comedy Central roast of Joan Rivers, a comedian called out Robin Quivers for having been raped by her father. He said something along the lines of, ‘‘She’s so damn ugly she ought to thank him for the favor.’’

On national television, he said this. While she sat there and laughed about it.

Now I’m not an oversensitive ninny or anything, but that made me uncomfortable. That woman must have skin a mile thick. There was a time that I was really offended by jokes about sexual abuse, but I realized it was no different than me laughing at Hitler jokes, really, and I mostly got over it. But it’s good, when deciding when and whether or not to use humor, to consider the audience, and recognize that some people are further along in the healing process than others. It’s possible for you to both have good intentions and for someone to be rightfully upset. We don’t have to create this dichotomy where you either agree or you’re an asshole.

I do think we live in a culture that, to some extent, does ‘‘condone, normalize, excuse, or encourage sexualized violence.’’ I believe that because I have firsthand experience there, and the levels that some people in this society will go to ignore and excuse and minimize and justify sexual abuse would absolutely sicken you if you had witnessed it yourself. The narrative of each woman in my family goes something like this: ‘‘I was raped/molested by someone I trusted and nobody gave a shit.’’ Women are just as complicit in this abuse as men. In fact, it is often the women trying to silence the abuse victim through shame, guilt, and a twisted sense of solidarity – ‘‘You don’t understand. This is normal. We aren’t allowed to complain about this.’’

That said, I am not convinced that rape jokes are proof of this any more than I am convinced Hitler jokes are proof that we are living in a society that condones, normalizes, excuses or encourages ant-Semitism.

While I’m not totally convinced that sexualized violence is about the exertion of power, there is certainly a power dynamic, namely, that the strong exploit the weaker members of society, that the marginalized become marginalized even further. Children, as a previous poster pointed out in another thread, are vulnerable whether they are male or female. The men in prison who are victimized are also vulnerable. This would suggest that women in this society are vulnerable too.

I don’t think this says anything particular about men or women. I think it says a lot about human nature though. In a society where women were more powerful than men, I have no doubt we would be the ones doing the exploiting.

As to your question of why people do it, everything we know about behavioral psychology suggests that punishment is an effective behavioral deterrent ONLY if it is absolutely consistent. Punishment for sexual abuse, rape and assault is about the least consistent consequence I can think of. The majority of these crimes aren’t even reported, and those that are don’t typically get too far either. It’s true that a person convicted of these crimes stands to lose everything, but the likelihood of being reported much less prosecuted is vanishingly small. It’s probably the least risky crime we’ve got.

On preview: No, Wesley, you didn’t piss me off. I think you raised some great points. You seem to be someone who is genuinely trying to understand.

Utter nonsense.

Many people who commit sexual abuse, as far as I can tell, lead pretty normal lives in other areas with concepts like empathy or respect.

I think on some level people are able to turn off their empathy when it comes to sexuality the same way we can when it comes to in group/out group divisions.

For example a member of the SS may be a great family man. Someone who engages in religious war may be a great member of (their) community. I really don’t think you can generalize the SS guy as all evil or all good. In certain situations he can turn off his empathy. Concepts like race, ethnicity, nationalism, religion (or anything else that divides us vs them) can turn people who are generally decent into evil monsters, at least towards the ‘others’.

I don’t agree with the people who think the legal system trivializes sexual abuse. Being a convicted sex offender means getting some of the harshest social and legal punishments out there.

Rape Culture and The Retards — band name!

Obviously I fall into the camp of considering rape to be RAPE and your above examples being classes of assault.

Rape is assault.

Those are not accepted parts of life IMO. Would a guy want someone he respects or wants to impress to know that he does those things? no. Every one of those things (except for point 3, which is a gray area) are illegal and will get you labeled a sex offender for years if caught. As far as point 3, that is something both genders have done.

She shouldn’t have gotten drunk.

I don’t care if a woman puts on a g-string and pours honey all over herself, and double dog dares a man to touch her…he has no right to once she says no.

But if she got so drunk that she doesn’t say no, and she is not passed out, then she shouldn’t have gotten that drunk. He is drunk too, (usually) and he and her are both grown ups.

There are certain dopers that I tremble to hear me say that, as I can imagine them ripping me a new one in this thread. But I have always felt that way. I don’t see how it can be any other way.

ETA: This is response to Steronz’s post 13. I was so nervous typing it, I messed up the quoting.

You’ve never seen a guy high five or thumb up his buddy for grabbing a woman’s rear or breast in a bar or crowd situation? I have, plenty of times. Never seen men on the street egg each other on in catcalling women? And, if ignored or rebuffed, maybe call her a bitch or a dyke, maybe follow her down the street as a pack? Sexual harassment and violence - verbal and physical - is as common as mud.

While they might be illegal, convictions are almost non-existent considering how often that crap goes on (which is one thing I hope people glean from the anecdotes in the other thread). Try calling the cops and telling them that some stranger just grabbed your crotch.

People might frown and shake their heads, but they’re accepted. And amongst certain groups, specifically groups of young men who reinforce each others’ views of women as objects, some of those behaviors are applauded. ESPECIALLY when combined with anonymity over the internet.

I used to think like you, that such jackassery was rare, but then I really started to pay attention to all the crap that guys say to each other that usually just slips right through my awareness filter. It’s much better now that I’m older, but I still hang out with a lot of young guys in the car culture and I see it all the time.

Given I said "Obviously I fall into the camp of considering rape to be RAPE and your above examples being classes of assault. " then I obviously consider rape to be sufficiently different from assault to deserve its own category.

Which is exactly, to me, why it’s so important to fight sexual assault at the societal level, by working towards a situation where sexual information is readily enough available, sexual shame is lessened enough, consent and boundaries are respected enough, and the experiences and autonomy of those groups disproportionately subjected to sexual assault, such as women, children, queer and trans people, disabled people, sex workers, and the economically disadvantaged, are considered important enough that sexual assault takes place far less than it does today.

Once someone has to be punished, it’s too late.

I agree that rape is disturbingly common in our culture (meaning the United States) and not universally acknowledged as the very serious matter that it is. It is certainly trivialized in some segments of our culture.

But I also agree with Grey that to describe our entire culture as a “rape culture” is going too far. It may even represent an unhealthy obsessiveness about the issue. By that I don’t mean to diminish the seriousness of the actual problem–but no matter how serious a social problem is, if we talk about it as if it rules our lives, doesn’t that help it to?

Most rapists are never convicted, and even when a conviction is obtained, if the victim is not a child, or is not severely, visibly injured in the attack, the sentences are not harsh enough, IMO. There is not enough weight assigned to the victim’s enduring psychological trauma.

Fully agree - I think there should be very stringent evidence required for conviction - but when we are discussing the realities of rape from a woman’s perspective, whether or not it a prosecutable offense is really immaterial.

Lifted from another related thread

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12473444&postcount=14

May I point something out? Why do you and the other women on this board get to insult me, label me as ‘the problem’, say I encourage rape, etc? Doesn’t anyone see the irony that in a thread where you are upset that men can’t empathise with or respect you, then you turn around and insult other people? “You’re maybe not so bright”, how is that different than me calling a woman a cunt if she refuses to go out with me? Either way, One person feels the other loses their right to respect or empathy when they stop acting a certain way. Losing respect or empathy is not some black/white, good/evil thing. It happens all the time. Sometimes it involves sexuality, sometimes not.

Despite the insults directed at me, I really don’t think I live in a harassment culture or insult culture. I just figure some people are people I’d rather not be around and go from there.

Here’s the thing.

If she hadn’t gotten that drunk, she would not have been assaulted. This is correct.

However: the person who is at fault, 100%, for what happened, is the person who took advantage of a drunk woman. The problem is that we’re acting as if this guy can’t tell right from wrong and shouldn’t be responsible for being able to make that distinction. If we take it as the reason the assault happened was because she was drunk, then that means the woman is responsible for her assaulter’s behavior. This is what’s wrong.


I don’t think that the phrase ‘rape culture’ refers to a culture that promotes violence against women, or anyone else. I actually think that people who play games like Grand Theft Auto with guns and coke and ho-slapping are very well aware of the distinction between imagination and reality.

I think media’s definitely problematic, though. As an example I went to see a movie the other day. Now granted it was a fairly old movie. But here is how the relationship between a male character and a female character progresses.

He stares at her breasts and makes lewd comments about her body. He gropes her under a table. He repeatedly asks her whether she’s a virgin until she finally breaks down crying and admits that she is. He criticizes her for being uninterested or unwilling to have sex with him. In the end of the film she goes to him and kisses him passionately and the two of them begin a romantic relationship. This is The Breakfast Club, and in the end we see the lead male with his fist raised to the sky in a victory gesture: he’s finally found happiness.

Actually, you know where I first heard the phrase ‘rape culture’? In a discussion about how today’s media, IE books that have come out in the past few years, are problematic. (The links are helpful and interesting too.)


When a man catcalls at a woman while she’s walking down the street, that’s not ‘rape culture’, it’s one person being a jerk.

When the woman tells the man to leave her alone and he tells her she’s being frigid, prudish, or stuck-up, that’s damn problematic.

When an entire society finds this type of behavior (the man’s) annoying but unfortunately a part of every day life, that’s a really bad sign.

When people who behave normally and politely to women in public agree that her response was stuck-up and characteristic of a phobia toward men brought on by the advent of radical feminism…should I really have to explain why this is a problem?!


Rape culture isn’t American culture, it’s human culture. There’s definitely a difference between The Breakfast Club, and, say, a woman being imprisoned for adultery…because she was raped. But just because we can hold ourselves up as being more enlightened or whatever, it doesn’t mean we should just pat ourselves on the back as a nation and say, oh, our problems are all fixed, see how enlightened we are?

We have problems. We consider victims’ past sexual history as evidence in rape trials (yes, it’s just a Google search - click around for yourself). People use “I’d rape her” as a compliment. People make jokes like what olivesmarch4th was describing on the comedy roast.

I don’t think this is about violent pornography. I don’t think this is about violent films. I think this is about people not respecting women on the same level that they respect men. I think this is about the idea of the ‘crazy feminist’ who takes offense at everything to hold up as a strawman. I think this is about how people fail to realize that the difference between harrassing someone and being polite to them, male or female, is allowing them a choice of how to behave without being criticized or threatened.

I think even if I AM being ridiculous about being nervous when I’m taking public transportation alone, or when I am alone in an elevator with a man who is much larger and stronger than I am…I’m one of many, many people who feels this way. I don’t think it’s radical feminists that made me feel this way. I think it’s our culture.

Of course rape is part of Culture! Haven’t you ever seen opera?

Why are you only blaming the man? Surely, by your reasoning, she was also taking advantage of a drunk man, and shouldn’t hide behind her self-inflicted intoxication when it comes time to take responsibility for her actions?

Just because I framed the debate in this light doesn’t mean I agree with that term or am fully convinced of its implications, so I’ll thank you for withholding judgment on my sanity. It was the crux of the debate, so I put it out there.

One thing I don’t get is why people are so afraid to put rape on the same spectrum as a good old-fashioned unwanted groping. They are both instances where boundaries are violated without the consent of the victim. I think it’s natural for people to want to grade levels of sexual violation, but it isn’t really rational based on the data we have for predictive factors of PTSD.

‘‘Severity of trauma’’ as a predictive factor for the development of PTSD (for any trauma) is actually only moderate, meaning it doesn’t have as direct a correlation with psychological damage as you would think. What seems to matter even more is the context of the trauma and its aftermath – how much social support did the victim receive and was the victim experiencing other life stressors at the time? There are a host of factors that go into it, but even among the big three, they are not even all that predictive. It’s almost a total crapshoot when it comes to what experiences will traumatize what person.

I realize people often want to couch things in terms of legal distinction, but as Dangerosa pointed out, legality is beside the point when we are talking about psychological damage and the experiences of women (I say women in particular because women are twice as likely to develop PTSD than their male counterparts.) Most experiences of sexual abuse and assault are never followed in any way by legal proceedings. Most of us know we can’t prove anything in a court of law and would not want to subject ourselves to such a demoralizing process. But we nonetheless live with the psychological legacy of that event.

You can argue that the law makes a clear distinction between rape and sexual assault, but you can’t argue that a woman’s brain does. You just can’t.

Yes she made a bad decision - but she didn’t assault herself! If you reverse the genders it is still the assaulter who is at fault for the assault.