I didn’t label you as the problem or say you encourage rape - I said you were maybe not so bright. Perhaps socially clueless is another way to express it. If people are discussing their grandparents killed in the holocaust do you bust in with jewish jokes? If you do, that’s no so bright. It doesn’t mean you’re anti-semitic or encouraging genocide, but it means you lack tact and are maybe…not so bright. (Yes, yes, post 41 and I brought up Hitler, blah, blah, blah).
Further - you really think saying someone is ‘not so bright’ is equal to calling them a ‘cunt’?
I think the problem with that example is that it’s incredibly vague. The woman got drunk, woke up and can’t remember having sex. That is not evidence of rape. I feel it didn’t really fit in with the other examples because she doesn’t even know what the hell happened and it’s really shitty for someone in that circumstance to just assume she was raped.
I don’t believe in ‘bad decisions’. I mean, I believe in them, but I don’t believe they factor into whether or not a man has a right to rape a woman. that is why I gave the crazy statement about the g-string and the honey. To point out that I totally don’t believe a man has a right to rape a woman. No matter what.
HOWEVER.
If two people are in a bar getting drunk, and they stumble home and have sex at his house, and she wakes up in the morning and doesn’t remember a thing. That is not rape. Do we agree? Even if she feels that she was too drunk to make an informed decision? As long as she was not unconcious, and she did not say no, do we agree she was neither raped or assaulted? I know some women that don’t agree with me on this. Do you?
ETA: Right. In the post that started this, the wording was that she woke up realizing that she had sex that she didn’t remember. Not that the man had forced her to. I didn’t realize this matter was settled legally, steronz. That man is on the hook for that??
Just because it’s law doesn’t mean it’s just. My opinion is that two people who are equally drunk who consciously choose to have sex are equally responsible for the outcome.
Rape? I dunno, I was always taught that if I had sex with a drunk girl I’d be raping her because she wasn’t a consenting partner. Maybe that was just a scare tactic. (this was in response to Nzinga, Seated)
Well, there’s a big difference between something being against the illegal but generally ignored because it’s culturally accepted, and something being against the law but generally not prosecuted because it’s practically impossible to do so. You get groped while out at a crowded bar or on the subway. You make your way outside and call the police and tell them that some guy just copped a feel. I’ll go ahead and even assume that you were, say, in a bar or club and got a look at the guy, and can provide a basic physical description of the guy.
That’s great. It leaves the police with at best a vague physical description and an accusation that’s impossible to build a case behind. Even if they find someone who matches the description who freely owns up to having been in that place at that time, then the police still don’t have any evidence.
That’s the same problem with many cases/accusations of rape. She says she said no and asked for him to stop. He says she didn’t. Unless she put up a hell of a fight and then went to the police immediately, before showering or even washing her hands, the only evidence the police could likely gather would confirm that, yes, they had sex. There’s no way to prove that she said no, unless she tried to kick the shit out of the guy.
I don’t think this is an inherently bad thing, and I sure as hell don’t want to live somewhere where “He did it!” is enough to send someone to prison. This’ll probably get me flamed to hell and back, but: A woman (or man, for that matter) does have some control over how things play out. Guy paws at your tits on the bus? Tell him, very loudly, to get the fuck away from you (now other people are paying attention, and he’ll probably stop). It’s the end of the date and he’s looking for more than you’re willing to give? Don’t ask him to stop, scream for him to stop (so that if the cops go to your neighbors they may have heard something), and fight to the point where at least one of you gets bruised and bloodied. Basically, if you realize something bad is going on, and you don’t want to just sit and take it, then you need to be proactive in 1) stopping it and 2) building your own case.
You don’t have recourse against a guy grabbing your breast? That’s not sexual assault? What country are you living in?!
That happened to me a few years ago, and I did, and they took it pretty seriously. I didn’t see the guy well enough to ID him, so there was no conviction or arrest, but from how seriously the cops took it, I got the sense that there very well could have been.
I don’t know–I don’t really know anyone who would view a guy grabbing a woman’s crotch as anything other than sexual assault.
A few years ago I was in a metro station by myself when a group of people between me and the exit saw me and started screaming, “Kill the faggot, kill the faggot!” at me to the tune of “The Ride of the Valkyries.”
Uttering threats to kill is a crime, aggravated by the crime’s being based on sexual orientation, a ground for increased sentencing under the Criminal Code, and it scared me shitless besides. Accordingly I filed a police report the next day.
Do you think I had the slightest illusion that anything was going to be done to attempt to arrest the people who threatened me, let alone prosecute, convict, or punish them? Of course not. They had long since vanished into the ether. Even if, somehow, they were found, what evidence could I present, beyond my statement and the police report? Any witnesses would have long since disappeared as well. (I filed the report so that it would appear in the statistics. The officer said, “We don’t really have too many hate crimes – at least, too many reports of hate crimes.”)
Something’s being a crime is not the same thing as having recourse against it. In some cases rightly, in other cases wrongly. What tiny proportion of rapes, let alone harassment/assault episodes such as the ones cited, will lead to conviction? Yeah, that’s what I thought. And this doesn’t even get into some of the horrendous things some survivors suffer in going through the criminal justice system.
And yet some people will treat a woman who has survived rape as though she’s a liar because she cannot point to the successful conviction of her rapist.
Of course! I mean, I agree! That’s why there are women’s self-defense classes and everything.
But that doesn’t mean it’s her fault if she gets assaulted. If she can’t fight back because she’s not strong enough. If she can’t fight back because she’s afraid. Even if she can’t fight back because she’s drunk.
If John Doe fails to fight back when someone is punching and kicking him because he’s not strong enough, or because he panics and freezes up, that doesn’t make him more culpable for getting punched and kicked. It doesn’t make him any more responsible for the actions of the person punching and kicking him. If the guy is punching him and kicking him when he’s drunk and doesn’t have the coordination to fight back, yeah he shouldn’t have let himself get that drunk, but that doesn’t mean he MADE the guy beat him up.
Sexual assault is different from other types of physical assault because of the way our society looks at sex and sexuality. In some ways we have to take this into account when we’re talking about these cases. In other ways we have to remember that they’re similar.
Edit: Nzinga, Seated - I should have read more carefully about the situation. In the legal sense, it is in fact rape if the victim was too drunk to possibly give consent. It is different from the situation of forced sex but I think it is still rape. However now that I realize that’s the situation in question it is somewhat tangential to the overall discussion in this thread.
One thing that was mentioned in the other thread was evolution. Specifically, that perhaps men evolved a predilection to rape.
Utterly fucking irrelevant.
We live in a society. What we may have “evolved to do” is a game, for sociologists and bored college students. Just because we may have evolved to do something doesn’t mean we should give any extra leniency or favors to the behavior. Part of living somewhere better than a damp cave, hunting and gathering all day is controlling ones instincts, one’s evolutionary preferences that–mind you–we don’t even know exist, that I think don’t exist. Bringing that up is nothing more than a dodge, a sideshow, and it makes me think you’re trying to dance around something more sinister.
I actually think you’ve hit the nail on the head, at least in the context of a ‘rape culture’ that extends to a manner of things that don’t seem to be directly connected – catcalls, media depictions, hell throw in violent video games. How much easier is all of this if you don’t truly believe women and girls are quite human? Close… but not quite there. (Not such a crazy idea, given that that was certainly the case in the past and still the case in some countries). That they’re, well, objects. That they can’t quite grow up and reason the way men can, that they need to be shown and taught, or forced. That whereas each man is the hero of his own life, women are the scenery or in supporting roles.
And yes, this can be applied to other ‘others.’ It’s late, I’m tired, and I hope this doesn’t some across as melodramatic, but dehumanizing the enemy is a classic combat tactic. If you don’t think women are fully human, at least not strange women, or bitches who won’t go out with you and look like the ones you see in magazines, how much easier is it to cut them down? How often do we hear ‘What if this happened to your mom/sister/daughter/wife?’ in an effort to make a man see something from a new perspective, as if a childless, spouse-less orphan couldn’t possibly be asked to examine any experience but his own, as a man?
Sure. And others will knee-jerk in defense of the poor helpless woman, a la Crystal Magnum. Do we simultaneously have a “Rape Accusation Culture” too? Or is injustice against your favored group more important than injustice against your disfavored group?
I realize a lot of men are fearful and angry about this injustice–for good reason. I ask you how much MORE afraid and angry you would be if almost every guy you knew had been falsely accused of rape. It’s true, some of them might really be rapists, but what are the odds they would all be lying?
I think that’s part of the “rape culture” - the “rape culture” doesn’t just victimize women - and it isn’t just about rape. That rape is prevalent enough that idiot women can accuse innocent men of rape - or think that is an appropriate thing to do - is part of the issue - as much as a woman who gets called “bitch” when she won’t give a guy her phone number is part of the issue.
Other ways men are victimized by the “rape culture” - you can’t talk to a strange woman without risking coming off as creepy. You have to be extra careful at work to avoid being perceived as a harasser.
What if he did? Getting drunk means deliberately sabotaging your own capacity to make good decisions. If the reason John Doe got in a fistfight was because it seemed like a good idea at the time, how is this not his fault? If John Doe and another guy are both drunk and get in a fistfight, you can’t place all blame the other guy just because John lost.
Similarly, if Jane Smith chooses to have sex with someone but regrets it in the morning, her later regrets don’t change the fact that she did consent. If John and Jane are both drunk and both choose to have sex because they are too drunk to make good decisions, they’re either both rapists or neither are.