Please, respond to what I say rather than what you ascribe to me because I, presumably, am on some kind of “side”. It is the emissions in total that is the critical factor. Europeans largely accept high fuel prices. That is not to say that all Europeans are responsible. An inefficient vehicle used a little outputs the same emissions as a more efficient vehicle used more often. Unlimited use of fossil fuels risks abrupt climate change, and so we must seek to reduce our emissions such that we do not exceed 500ppm of CO[sub]2[/sub] within the next few decades.
Wow…73 dollars per tank??? It costs me roughly 80/month to fuel my gaz-guzzling, earth-raping Jeep Cherokee (listed as 15/19 MPG) for a month.
The biking idea would be fine if I lived in a place as flat as the Netherlands, but they don’t call West Virginia the Mountain State for nothing, so around here biking as transportation is very rarely done due to the grades around here (though recreational biking is a huge sport around here…there was a big mountain biking championship down in the resort area of the state last week).
I wanted the Cherokee because I really wanted to have 4wd around here (last winter was quite mellow with only one major snowstorm, and driving in my pickup during that was nearly impossible…was doing the “spin up the hill and pray” thing…I didn’t even want to think about doing that once or twice a month), and chose that comfort/peace of mind over fuel economy (a decision that currently hurts, considering I’ve topped 40 dollars a fill recently).
Of course, 'Doors. Why, every other car I see on the way into work is a Lambo, Maserati, Aston Martin or Bentley. :rolleyes:
Wow really, every other car on the Garden state Parway is an American made Gas Guzzling SUV. You must live in a really exclusive area. 
I second that. I too drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee in Canada due to the fact that:
a) Winter lasts 5 - 6 months per year and my road gets ploughed LAST
b) I live 35 miles from work
c) There’s no public transportation where I live
d) The nearest store is about 25 miles from home
I don’t think people in Europe appreciate the seasonal and geographical differences that necessitate lower fuel prices in North America.
On that note, we could do with some input from Norwegian and Swedish Dopers. They have moderately severe winters there too.
I’m surprised nobody has pointed out the Record Profits of Big oil.
Exxon Mobil Corp.’s second-quarter earnings climbed 35 percent to $7.64 billion.
BP PLC’s net income increased 29 percent, to $5.59 billion.
Royal Dutch Shell PLC rose 34 percent to $5.24 billion.
ConocoPhillips reported an eye-popping 51 percent jump in earnings, to $3.14 billion.
Now, I’m not saying these companies can’t turn a profit, but how about something a bit more reasonable. They could lower the price per gallon and Still carry a double-digit profit. The get away with it because there is no one to stop them. We, as a nation, MUST have gasoline at this time.
And if I hear one more person compare gas to water or milk, I’m going to scream!
Can’t add much more of use except to say, at current prices, my Prius will actually save me money over a comparable mid-sized sedan because of higher fuel efficiency. That’s if, of course, I keep it about five or six years, which I plan to do. Throw in the new tax break, and hopefully a decrease in hybrid prices as economies of scale are reached, and, again, something like a Prius or a Civic hybrid (the new one is kinda cool looking) is actually a reasonable way to go solely based on fuel savings, if you’re in the market for a $20k car, or thereabouts, and don’t need high speed or tons of power.
Oh, and BTW, I filled up this morning for the equivalent of 63 USD.
But I will bet you that the majority of those Lambo Murcielagos, Aston Martin DB9s, Maseratis and Bentleys are sold and registered in the U.S. Those are just not practical cars for Europe. The Lambo couldn’t handle all the speed bumps and cobblestones here in Holland (plus you would have trouble ever getting out of second, even on the highway), and you couldn’t park the Bentley anywhere, and would probably end up driving it into a canal if you tried some of the very tight roads we have here. Most of the really rich people we have here don’t drive Lambos, Ferraris or Bentleys. They may buy them (as an investment or to show off), but they will also own a Seat, Fiat, or even a Smart for their real driving.
Also, all of those cars are built and sold in very small amounts. You can’t tell me that the 400 Murcielagos built each year have the same effect as one million F150s (that’s roughly the number of F150s produced in 2003). Even the Audi S4 isn’t sold in huge amounts. This report from the EPA says that Average Fuel Economy in the U.S actually declined in the mid-1990s and has been holding steady since then. However, the number of miles driven has increased. This article points out that since 1994 oil consumption has only risen about 1% in Europe while it has risen 16% in the U.S. At the same time the EPA report says:
I don’t have absolute proof that these things are linked (like Disraeli said: “There are lies, damn lies - and statistics.”) but it certainly seems reasonable to assume the increased sale of SUVs plays a part.
[QUOTE=Boggette]
I’m surprised nobody has pointed out the Record Profits of Big oil.
Exxon Mobil Corp.’s second-quarter earnings climbed 35 percent to $7.64 billion.
BP PLC’s net income increased 29 percent, to $5.59 billion.
Royal Dutch Shell PLC rose 34 percent to $5.24 billion.
ConocoPhillips reported an eye-popping 51 percent jump in earnings, to $3.14 billion.
Now, I’m not saying these companies can’t turn a profit, but how about something a bit more reasonable. They could lower the price per gallon and Still carry a double-digit profit. …snip…[\QUOTE]
Aghast: Surely you don’t mean they should lower their margin, just because overall profits are up.
Actually that is not a realistic expectation. No Corp will willingly drop margins unless demand was going down or someone else was undercutting them.
Speaking of ignorance…“a fair number” actually is about 2 or 3% of our electricity being produced by oil (at least as a few years ago…it has been falling and may be lower now). The rough breakdown, from memory, for how much electricity is produced by different sources in the U.S. is:
40-45% coal
25-30% natural gas
20% nuclear
8% renewables (mainly hydroelectric)
2% oil
I lived in Northern Virginia for 12 years and went to school in Montgomery County. There was no way I could get to school using public transport and riding a bike was completely out of the question too. In American suburbia there is just no way you can do anything without a car. This is a consequence of the way the suburbs have always been planned and built and I don’t think there is really a lot that can be done to change it now. However, even in small towns there is no longer a “downtown” with a post office, a store, a bank, and the doctor’s office all within walking distance. Everything is now in huge strip malls outside of town or near the Walmart that has a parking lot the size of the town I live in here in the Netherlands. I am always reminded of Bill Bryson in “I’m a Stranger Here Myself” where he says people would look at him strangely when he would walk somewhere in town instead of driving.
Well, imagine this instead: By this time in 2007 you’re paying twice what you do now for gas and the money isn’t being collected for any particular purpose like “to discourage the use of fossil fuels.” And that public transportation you’ve got as an option? It’s gone. Actually, it never existed. The only public transportation within 50 miles of you goes only to the university a few towns away, and to the two cities ajoining it. The post office is five miles away, but where you live, that’s pretty close. Nearest grocery store is just over nine miles, one way. Your workplace is even farther away at about 15 miles each way; this is a big improvement from the 30 miles it used to be. Why? Your town is considered a “bedroom community” which means although it’s a nice place to live and the cost of living is only 3/4ths what it is in the closest cities, there are virtually no businesses in the town; this means both that there are not many jobs, and you can’t get even the basic necessities in town since there’s no place to buy them. There are a lot of bedroom communities in your county. If you wanted to move within walking distance of your workplace, you’d pay an average of $850/mo for a one-bedroom apartment, and that’s just not realistic considering your income - you’d be paying in rent what you do in fuel, so what’s the incentive? So you continue to live where you do.
This country wasn’t set up the way parts of Europe are, so things are spread out. (Remember how a few centuries ago England came to the US to pillage the forested areas in this country after you developed so much of your country there were no trees? Vast sections of the US are still filled with more trees than people, so saying a good portion the US is more rural than the UK is an understatement) Short of spending a lot more to live in more crowded, less pleasant cities, or perhaps becoming neo-Amish and farming, there is no alternative to driving for most people who live in rural areas of the US. The doubled prices do not mean that you’re getting a shiny public transportation system to use instead while smugly citing your fuel costs are higher, not that you need to purchase it anyway. All you earn is the right to wonder why people keep buying SUVs that get less than 10/mpg (that’s the mpg of some SUVs brand new!) that drive up the cost of the gas for themselves, and those of you who are driving smaller vehicles with better mpg. So people are going to bitch about it.
I thought oil was 6% and Nuclear was closer to 30%. But I do remember Coal still topping the list. We should probably build additional Nuclear plants and we should work on more Wind Farms and Solar Farms. None of this has an immediate impact on Gasoline. Most oil goes into Gasoline, Heating Oil and then Plastics. Electricity is lower on the list.
No offense but the anecdotal stories of some guys working on the pipeline don’t mean anything. Probably, after a period of time where the caribou realized that the pipeline workers wouldn’t hurt them, the caribou would be easier to see as they quit hiding so much. Did your worker go out and count the entire herd? I don’t think so.
Looks at American’s outraged that the price of gas has gone up
Looks at Europeans who have brought ridiculous gas prices on themselves, and are now self rightously indignant of American whinning
laughs uproariously!
Exactly. I mean, just because the Europeans like to beat themselves up and feel good about it by taxing the hell out of their gas, doesn’t mean the US should do the same. Different strokes and all that. I mean, Europeans seem to love taxes and they seem to feel very good about paying through the ass for everything…more power to em. 
Contrary to popular opinion the US isn’t a bandit nation. We didn’t go into Iraq and TAKE the oil…we went in and allowed to Iraqi’s to sell their oil on the international market. So far Iraqi production is still way down, mostly due to their oil infrastructure constantly getting wacked. Even if it was at peak however, I doubt it would have much impact on the international price of oil…where the US would have to buy Iraqi oil if we wanted it.
Good…I don’t want to debate the Iraqi war again either. Especially since it really doesn’t have much to do with your question. 
To answer this though, no…I seriously doubt the price is going to go down, at least not until some other fuel source overtakes oil for personal transport. It will steadily grow worse from here until that time because of basic supply and demand economics…the entire world demands oil at an increasing clip, there is only so much supply. Simple as that.
Most of it is either not quite ready for prime time, or still costs more than using what we have now…so its not cost effective yet. It WILL be available when companies can make money selling the products, which will probably initially be more expensive than the current products on the market. When that balance shifts and its cheaper (and thus more profitable) to have, say, hydrogen powered vehicles, then we’ll have hydrogen powered vehicles. Maybe rising prices will finally get people off their ass about nuclear power in this country…that would be a help.
In the mean time I see fuel efficiency making a huge comeback in the US…and hybrids as a bridge technology between our current situation and whatever the future holds.
I think the Alaskan oil deposits should be exploited myself. HOwever, they won’t have any effect at all on the price of fuel in the US. None. So, if its your hope this will alleviate the problem, then you are mistaken…it won’t help.
Basically just resign yourself to ever increasing prices of fuel at the pump here in the US (though thankfully not to levels seen in Europe…those masochistic bastards have been paying through the nose for decades. ). Take steps…drive efficiently (i.e. stick to the speed limit, drive only when necessary, car pool if possible, don’t use the AC unless you need it, etc), and if you are looking for a new car consider ‘fuel efficiency’ as a top priority. Perhaps consider a hybrid.
Eventually, IMHO, the market will provide a viable alternative…though what that might be is anyone’s guess. My own guess is a nuclear power generation and hydrogen as a carrier fuel for personal transport. But there are lots of other alternatives waiting in the wings for the price of oil to reach a level where they become economically viable.
-XT
Hey, no argument from me there (see my previous post). In Northern Virginia, there was no way that we could go shopping without a car. This is one of the reasons my mom got her drivers license when we moved to the States. In Europe she did not need one, and they were damn expensive too. In fact they still are. A drivers license will cost you between 1000 and 2000 Euros here in the Netherlands.
The problem is that the U.S. is just so damn big and spread out. Still, it is sad how many small towns that used to have a “downtown” where everything was within walking or biking distance don’t have that anymore.
I live in Silicon Valley, the mother of suburbia, and I can take care of well over 50% of my needs by bike. I don’t necessarily do that, but I could if I wanted to. My town has a downtown with a post office, stores, banks, and many doctors’ offices all within walking distance (or an easy bike ride). We have some strip malls like most places, but not “everything” is located in them. But even if they were, what is it in the nature of “strip malls” that make them inaccessable by bike? Nothing, other than a derrogatory name.
It’s not that people can’t take care of their needs by bike in the US, it’s that they largely don’t want to.
Agent Towers: You keep saying that people are going to get fed up and “do something”, ostensibly politically. What exactly are we going to do? The government could impose price controls, but do you really think that will make things better? Seriously, you said didn’t want to rant, but that’s all you’ve done so far in this thread. You said you don’t know much about economics, and recognizing one’s own lack of knowledge is the first step in attaining that knowledge. Ride your bike to the nearest bookstore and buy a book on basic economics. Reading it will be a lot more beneficial than ranting about the high price of gas in the US.
[QUOTE=jrfranchi]
No, of course not! No matter what the cost in terms of human distress or inconvenience, no one should ever inconvenience a CORPORATION. That would be SOOOOOO wrong!