Raped at the pump again - when will it end? What can we do?

There is also an APS (American Physical Society) report on hydrogen fuel cells for automobiles that documents the many formidable challenges in both hydrogen production, on-board-storage, and efficient use. This is not a near-term solution.

But the most basic issue is that hydrogen is a method of fuel storage; it is not a fuel itself because the hydrogen has to be produced somehow and that takes energy. If you produce it using fossil fuels, then you are sort of back in the same boat (although with some potential advantages for efficiency and pollution control and…potentially…carbon sequestration because you have moved from many 100s of millions of point-sources to more centralized generation of the necessary energy).

A recent study that compared various possibilities for automobiles concluded the potential savings (in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, I believe) of going from conventional internal combustion engines to hybrids was great but the additional savings of going from hybrids to fuel cell vehicles was not very much until such time as you were no longer using fossil fuels to produce the hydrogen. (From the point-of-view of saving oil specifically, the case might be somewhat different…But, the options of using more coal or natural gas to produce the hydrogen both have lots of other downsides.)

snake legs,

You are however not the norm. Most people are not biking when they can. They are driving even just two blocks away. To drop off the kids. Or to buy themselves a cuppa. In the SUV.

City centers are designed to encourage car use, not to encourage public transportation and walking a few blocks, or biking.

Bluntly put, for most of America gas is still too good of a bargain.

And our response to our having to fill up our leviathin vehicles is drill more wells and get the Saudis to produce more faster! Discipline ourselves? Political suicide to even suggest it.

But the bargain has some not so hidden costs, beyond the wallet lightening effect:

Obesity. No question that our sedentary lifestyles, and driving everywhere is part of that, contributes to obesity rates.

Global warming. No real scientific debate on it. It is here. It will much worse.

And then there is China to consider. The consequences of China’s rapid and accelerating industrialization and car culture adoption on oil demand is huge. How many years is it before demand exceeds the capacity to increase supply? What happens to prices then? What does their input do to global warming without universally agreed upon international agreements?

Fuel cells may be not yet around the corner but places like China that do not yet have the infrastructure to replace may be ripe for building a primary infrasructure that allows for it as they come on board. Prices are only going to go up. I’m buying Ballard and PlugPower while I can afford to. And my 3 yo Civic hybrid will keep me getting around 40 mpg until they make either plug-in hybrids or fuel cell cars affordably even if I have to wait another ten years.

This is an engrossing thread, but I think many here are making this issue more complicated than it has to be. It doesn’t really matter what gas costs in europe. Whether or not anthrogenic climate change is a real problem isn’t the issue here. Alaskan caribou aren’t central to this problem.

The oil companies are gouging you at the pump because they can.

You live 20 miles from the nearest post office and 25 miles from the nearest grocery store? You need a four-wheel-drive vehicle to drive through the snow in the winter? Okay. It’s ultimately your decision to live where you do, and the oil companies are making you pay for it. They have you over the proverbial barrel.

Discussing the whys and wherefores of the rising cost of gasoline is all well and good, and it’s worth being informed about the global economic forces driving up the price of gasoline, but I don’t see this kind of discussion revealing what individual consumers can do to reduce their monthly fuel expenses.
Since my knowledge of economics doesn’t extend beyond what I read in an Economics 101 textbook, I’m going to take a dum-dum approach to the problem:

Q: The price of gasoline has risen, and there is nothing you can do to lower the price of gasoline. How do you spend less money on gasoline?
A: Buy less gasoline.

It’s that simple. I see three options for folks getting gouged at the pumps:

  1. Make a change in your lifestyle (i.e. move to another city or neighborhood) that eliminates or cuts down on your commute and/or need to drive in general
    And/or
  2. Buy or lease a vehicle with excellent mileage, even if it isn’t the most desirable vehicle available.
    Or
  3. Continue to pay through the nose for gasoline.

Your choice.

So, just because a thing is hard to do, it isn’t worth doing … is that what I’m hearing from you, John Mace?

I can’t speak for John Mace, but my opinion is that it is worth putting money into research on hydrogen fuel cells…but this is no excuse to avoid taking actions that will be beneficial over the shorter term (like raising CAFE standards in a meaningful way) and also investing in renewable energy sources that could allow us to produce hydrogen without using fossil fuels.

It is just important to keep in mind that simply having hydrogen fuel cell technology won’t be a “silver bullet”.

So a problem here is that OPEC has the whole world by the short hairs. Now I’m a free market kind of guy, but why don’t the various governments of the world just say “Look OPEC: don’t do that or we will take your companies from you by force.”?

This isn’t some kind of warhawk urge. I just don’t understand the politics involved.

It’s not actually clear that OPEC is significantly curtailing global production at the moment. Oil wells are not bottomless. Best come to grips with that reality, rather than blaming foreign governments for it.

I’ve only scanned the thread, but here are a few thoughts anyway.

As someone said, taxes are the reason people in other countries pay more for a gallon of gas than we do. People in other countries tend to pay higher taxes overall than we do, I think. But they get something for their money. Better public transportation, less expensive health care, a more generous social safety net, incentives to businesses to provide more paid vacation time for employees…

I’ve been to the following European cities: London, Oostende, Brussels, Milan, Florence, Venice, Vienna, Munich, Copenhagen and Uppsala. In every one of these cities I could get around very easily on foot or on one of their excellent buses or subways.

When I lived in Lancaster, CA: ‘Public transportation? What public transportation?’

When I lived in L.A.: I used buses when I had to. They were often crowded and I hated waiting for them. Since I lived on the West Side, MetroRail was not an option. We didn’t have it. You know that song Nobody Walks In L.A.? That sums it up for many areas. Most neighbourhoods have markets, restaurants, fast food places, etc. that are within a mile or two – easy walking distance. But getting out of a neighbourhood and getting to another part of the city – something I found very easy in London, Munich and Stockholm, for example – pretty much requires a car, motorcycle or scooter.

Bellingham and Birch Bay, WA: I see Whatcom County mini-buses in the neighbourhood frequently. I should find out their schedule. Downtown Bellingham is easy to walk around in. It’s a nice old city. You can take a bus to other parts of the city. Of course, the population is only about 65,000 or so. Not very big. There’s not much in Birch Bay. I can walk to the (very small) corner market, a Thai restaurant, a nice restaurant with a ‘beach café’ attached, a sushi place, and… that’s about it.

I’ve only been to the East Coast twice, and then only on business. We had a rental car. Still, I understand that the East has a fairly good public transportation system. In the West, things are spread out and public transportation sucks. The supermarket is five or six miles away. I did buy a bicylce in L.A., but I found out that my knees (which I destroyed in high school) did not permit me to ride because my right knee won’t bend far enough without raising the seat such that I cannot comfortably reach the pedals. I only go to the Post Office (also four or five miles away) when I’m sending out or picking up a package. Neither the grocery store nor the Post Office are really feasible on a bicycle in my case, even if I had good knees. My bank is over 20 miles away. So the problem as I see it is that most places in this country do not have decent – let alone good – public transportation, and things tend to be rather spread out.

I would very much like to have a Prius or another car that is more efficient than what I have. But the reason I got the Cherokee in the first place was because I could not carry my gear. With the Cherokee I can carry a couple of large tripods, a jib, two or three broadcast-sized cameras in cases, monitor, sandbags, grip bag, camera dolly, track, miscellaneous items, *and/i] a passenger. I can’t see carrying all of that on the Yamaha. Oh, and I need something to pull the boat, too. But it would be nice to have an efficient car that I could use when I’m not on a shoot, and that would be drier than the motorcycle.

Do I object to high fuel prices? Yes. My income is very spotty, since I only make money when someone hires our services. My Cherokee doesn’t get very good mileage and I can’t afford to go out and buy a Prius. But I would support higher taxes – and thus more expensive fuel – if the money went toward public transportation. I don’t mind taxes, but I hate hearing of the record profits the oil companies are making at the expense of people who must drive.

Americans like their gas-guzzling cars too much. I remember back the 1973 Oil Embargo. I wasn’t old enough to drive, but dad and mom bought Toyotas. (Dad’s previous car was a 7-litre Ford Galaxie 500 that got 8 mpg.) I remember seeing more Japanese cars on the roads. I remember television advertising that stated EPA-estimated fuel efficiency. I remember that while fuel prices continued to climb, they did not climb as much as they have in the past year. I remember that with cheap gas, people started buying more SUVs and mileage claims disappeared from prominence in advertising. I remember seeing mileage figures dropping and dropping.

We have short memories. We bought SUVs even after having lived through the years with fuel efficiency was King. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way. People are shocked by the high price of fuel. We will start to see more and more vehicles that burn less and less fuel. Relative demand will decline and prices will become more stable. I only hope that people will remember the past this time, and not buy gas hogs when the panic ends.

I have a story… bear with me.

I took my four year old to his first soccer practice this morning. The entire parking lot was full, like 90% of SUVs (mine included, 2001 Dodge Durango) The other 10% included a sprinkling of mini-vans and higher end luxury cars. I was thinking about this thread as I looked and the fleet of gas guzzlers and thought back to my childhood in the mid 1970’s. My mom and dad bought a brand new Chevy Caprice Estate stationwagon in 1976. It gave them room for three kids and got about 18 mpg on the hwy.

Today, the caprice estate is long gone, not even offered by Chevy anymore. But families still have kids. Meaning, they still need big vehicles to carry their children and all of their crap around the city with. Right now, the only vehicles that can do so are SUVs and mini-vans. And I need to break it to you folks, mini vans don’t get much better milage than their comparable SUV cousin. The SUV is nothing new. Sure the Chevy Tahoe is a new model, but it evolved from the Carpcie Estate station wagon from the '70s and '80s and today offers no better or worse gas milage. The point being, nothing has changed regarding fueld efficiency whatsoever. Sure some new models are on the scene, but the family truckster is still out there like it has since Mike and Carol Brady lodad up the kids and went to the Grand Canyon in the late 60’s

People buy the vehicles they need, and pay for the gas that those vehicles require because they have no other choice. I would love to have a car that could hold three kids, two still in car seats, travel bags for all of us, and still get 30+ mpg. I don’t like the 18 mpg I get right now, but I have no other choice. Sure you see the highways on the morning commute with solo riders in the SUVs but many of them have a job to do carrying kids once the work day is over. This is the target market folks. The auto makers need to offer the Caprice Estate of the 1970s in more gas friendly manner and people will buy it. The Smart Cars and Priuses and Elements don’t meet the needs of todays consumers except in very few cases. Until those needs are met, don’t expect SUVs to ever go away.

To the contrary; OPEC is currently producing at a 26 year high. World demand is fueling the run up in prices, not any production limits by OPEC.

In what way? They are pumping at a 26 year high, and the price is determined by world demand. Are you just mad at their geographic good fortune?

What companies would you seize? How would that change who controls the oil? With what army? In case you haven’t noticed, the US is sort of preoccupied at the time, and the countries with large armies certainly are not inclined to invade Saudi Arabia; we couldn’t get them to help us in Iraq.

It’s a good thing you clarified that, because it would have been my first conclusion.

Most of the world frowns on taking something by force just because you don’t like to pay the market price. I know it’s not the American way, but we do have to live with these countries, so what are you going to do?

Where did I say that? I was responding to your erroneous statement that hydrogen fuel cells could be a viable alternative to petroleum “the relatively near future”.

Just because you’re happy living under an oppressive government doesn’t mean that everyone must.

And yes, the level of taxation placed on petrol, a substance necessary to modern life, by the UK government is oppressive.

As to what OPEC can do and peak oil production see this recent New York Times Magazine articel This isn’t an artificial shortage, they would rather us believe they can produce lots more than they can. But pumping it out much faster can end up making thm unable to get much of it out at all. We are approaching a period of peak supply while demand continues to increase. Prices are not coming back down.

Actually, you can have both. Ford has a hybrid SUV and I’m sure the market will see a bunch of them in the near future. The US is supposed to get the turbo-diesel Focus from Europe so the ricers can have their cake and eat it too. Times are a-changin and the higher the price of gas the faster it will happen.

I budgeted for $3 per gallon this year so I’m in hog heaven.

They do make small Wagons that get decent mileage.
I have the 2003 Ford Focus Wagon. I have a heavy foot and still get 26-28 MPG.
I can get 3 kids in back. I’ve had until June, 2 in car seats and then had another kid or teen in between. There is lots of luggage room in the back. Enough for a Family of 4 to take a week long vacations by car to Hersey Park and then West Virginia. (Last Year, Kids were 7 & 5)

There are several other options of small wagons that do 25-33mpg.
Even some small SUV that get in the low 20’s. I believe Honda has one that does 23 mpg.

There is also a Ford Hybrid SUV that gets 35 MPG.

The Large wagons were in the days of 3-5 kids families. The average family now is 2-3.

What kind of car seats are you using… seriously. I can barely get three across in the Dodge and forget about the wifes Honda.

Oh yeah, I also need to pull a 22ft ski boat. That complicates things a bit.

I had a Greco Car Seat and a booster seat. By 22 year old niece could sit in between for a 90 minute trip to Bronx Zoo.
Other times my wife would sit between them. She is smallish, I could not have fit between them, but a 10 year old child should have no problem.

We are now down to just 1 booster. I don’t know why but this felt like a major milestone. Freedom from 2 carseats/boosters.

That is a major milestone. Unfortunatley we are not at the booster stage yet. Thaks for the advice though.

Well, John, relatively near future is a mighty flexible term. Here’s what I think. The real cap on oil prices is this: oil prices will not rise to the point where extraction of oil from the huge oil shale reserves in the Western US and Canada (think, "bigger than the Middle East oil reserves) becomes financially and politically viable (it’s already politically viable – the folks in charge of the US right now would fuck and kill their grandmothers for a new oil bonanza and the teevee idjits will go with anythign so long as they can still cruise around in SUVs).

The Middle Eastern oil ticks are properly terrified of losing world oil revenues and will do everything in their power to keep the money going while gouging us right up to a quarter of an inch of the point where they lose the market. I don’t know what that point is and they don’t either, really, but you can bet your ass that it’s more than sixty dollars a barrel.

Our smart move is to look hard for cheap and environmentally safe methods of extracting oil from oil shales – there are already some promising ones being experimented with – and also continue to work on hydrogen, solar and other alternative power sources. I recommend a penny a gallon tax on gas at the pump to be used for all those forms of research. At 2004 gas consumptions levels of 382.4 million gallons of motor gasoline consumed per day, that amounts to $1.4 billion per year, which oughtta get a few Manhattan projects going in various universities.

Any significant discoveries made from such research units could be sold to energy firms for royalties which could be used to fund more research.

I know you conservatives hate taxes, but this is a tax that will deal with a real problem, unless you LIKE being jerked around by the balls by Big Oil and Middle Eastern oil ticks.