I count myself as a pretty hard-core rationalist, but I can’t be arsed to care what other people believe. There are just too many people with too many irrational beliefs, it would be like that guy who can’t go to sleep because someone is wrong on the internet - i.e. overwhelming. You would not be able to convince even the smartest one out of even the dumbest belief, because everyone is so emotionally invested in their fantasies.
Secondly, I have a hard time imagining discussing this sort of thing with other “rationalists.” Why would you care or waste your breath talking about whether one belief is more or less wrong than another, if they are all senseless and irrational?
Finally, I try really hard not to judge people based on their irrational beliefs. For every person who is a jerk and justifies it by the nonsense they have absorbed unthinking from the ambient culture, there is (at least) another person who is in every way other than their beliefs completely great.
I make exceptions such as for anyone who uses woo instead of medicine to treat their children, but fortunately I don’t know any of those personally.
So I guess this is my answer to your question - I give all magical thinking a break until it has serious consequences on the innocent.
In the interest of speaking Satan’s case, one might argue that the magical thinking in question (i.e, believing that one’s deceased child is communicating from beyond the grave, which is ludicrous on the face of it) could be interpreted as abject refusal to acknowledge and deal with the loss, and that it is the solemn duty, however unpleasant it may be, of loved ones and friends to eventually drag her out of her denial.
This of course presumes that it is even possible to truly “deal with” and move on from the loss of a child, which is debate-worthy in and of itself - and it also presumes that the magical thinking was treated as an object of concern rather than an object of derision in the first place. I would argue that there is merit to “he/she is gone and you have to accept it” while there is none at all to “the way you are grieving invites scorn”.
Why would you be denigrating someone based on their beliefs? especially when they weren’t around to defend themselves?
Do you similarly get together with your friends and make fun of someone you saw wearing clothing you didn’t like and didn’t approve? Or listening to some music you didn’t like?
Stick with your beliefs and let others have theirs.
Yeah - that. I don’t know if “mean” was the exact word used. But the one person was saying they were working hard at being happier and didn’t wish to be around negative/critical people. The other person said being critical of nonsense is a huge part of who they are, and they were expressing these views - not in front of the mother, but in private around similar minded folk. The criticizer was claiming they were criticizing the thinking, not the person, and the other questioned whether that was true.
I have longtime relationships with both of them, and both of them feel I was not sufficiently supportive of them. And, to be honest, I’m not sure I feel strongly enough to split all of the hairs and take a firm position. I’d like the whole thing to just blow over, but these 2 don’t seem eager to.
Thanks for the comments/thoughts, folk. Keep them coming.
Yeah - this is kinda where I found myself. I know I at times speak ill of folk who are not present. Not my best moments. And in the past, I’ve modestly suggested we do less of that. The criticizer felt that any such thoughts merited ridicule.
Religion (and by extension superstition and other irrational beliefs) serve emotional needs that logic and reason do not.
This is probably most obvious when dealing with death. Death is pretty traumatic, can be extremely so, and performing various rituals or repeating myths can provide a level of comfort that rational thought does not, and in some instances may be necessary for the person to continue functioning. It would be cruel to take that away. Even for atheists, performing some sort of ritual can provide structure to the grieving process and help them cope, as routine can get one over some rough spots in life.
People who feel they have no control over their lives may engage in magical thinking as a means of having some sense of control, which can reduce stress levels. This is one reason why religious extremism crops up among the poor and oppressed.
So… while I am advocate of logic and reason, there are times when it’s best to simply leave well enough alone. If the religion/magical thinking/etc. does not interfere with daily functions in life it’s none of my business. If religion helps keep an alcoholic or drug addict sober definitely don’t mess with it.
I think that there is some research that essentially says that if you sit around bitching about people/mocking them/etc. with like-minded people that the act of doing that increases your level of frustration. In other words, venting reinforces itself. Hostility feeds upon itself. Contempt is an emotion that is cultivated.
I find that’s true of me. For that reason, I would try to avoid having such bitch/mock sessions about someone I like if they are not harming anyone. Because it will carry over into the next time I see that person. The eyeroll behind the person’s back turns into the eyeroll where they can see which turns into the eyeroll they are intended to see.
Haven’t lost a child, but I’ve lost quite a few people in my life. As I recently told someone, there are times I dream of having long conversations with those people. At the time it’s very vivid and real. Now, my rational side understands that this is an expression of my loss and missing of those people, that however real those conversations feel I’m not actually talking to the dead.
I can also understand how a person, particularly someone less educated and/or from an earlier time or a different culture might call those “visitors” ghosts or spirits and believe it’s a communication from the dead.
I’m not sure it’s a matter of accepting/not accepting. I accept that the dead are dead yet I still have those dreams. Like I said, it’s not rational, it’s from the emotional part of the brain, and pure reason and logic are unlikely to eradicate such things.
As I said, as long as it doesn’t interfere with a person’s ability to function in life it’s none of my business, and it’s certainly not the worst coping mechanism a person can have.
I do, however, have a special loathing for “mediums” who take advantage of such beliefs to suck money out of the grieving, con people, or otherwise jerk them around.
I don’t believe in woo and question the mental health of anybody who embraces it. However, I believe the “don’t be a jerk” rule applies in the vast majority of these kinds of encounters. Unless you’re on an anonymous message board, where that rule is somewhat more relaxed.
Every person is entitled to believe nonsense, and would do so without permission. I don’t have the time to convince people they’re wrong, I do it here only to sharpen my own dialectic. But I guess, if asked, I would give my honest opinion even to the woman of the dead girl.
Fortunately, most people IRL don’t ask me how I feel about the supernatural.
I tend to give those emotionally crippled enough for the crutches of religion/superstition a pass unless they insist that I use their crutches. I understand grief and struggle and sometimes the crutch can aid in surviving day to day.
The ones who insist that everyone needs crutches are the ones who don’t get that pass.
I tend to give it a pass and attribute it to a type of self delusional coping mechanism.
Being a “no one can possibly know for sure” type atheist who has experienced the death of a child, for myself I called it wishful thinking.
The loss of a child is a pretty heavy thing to deal with and at the time sometimes the only thing that could get you through the day was to dwell on the daydream of being reunited in an imaginary afterlife.
The night before my older sister had her mastectomy a few months ago, my baby sister wanted to assemble the family to pray for her. I attended that, because to my mind the purpose was to show support and love for our sister, and as I do love and support her, it seemed barely a sacrifice, and certainly no more an imposition than going to the hospital while she was having the surgery, which I was happy to do.
When I was in the hospital, my father wanted to bring his best friend and pastor to lay his healing hands on me. That I didn’t put up with. I have no faith – scratch that. I know very well that there’s no such thing as miraculous healing. More to the point, this particular offer was less an expression of love than an attempt at control, and I didn’t have the energy to spare that humoring that crap would take. Dad also periodically “blesses” desserts so that I can eat them without worrying about my blood sugar. I don’t even pretend to listen when he makes such claims, as I like my feet connected to my ankles.
To the extent that not speaking ill of her about magical thinking behind her back is equivalent to not speaking ill of the way she was dressed behind her back, I can see giving her a pass. To the extent that not being negative implies that magical thinking somehow makes more sense when the thinker is sad, no.
BTW, never being negative makes as little sense as never being positive. They are both necessary at times - especially if you do reviews.