Not necessarily. Reports are that Isaac Asimov still stayed totally rational as he was dying. I had a biopsy for my thyroid where was some small chance it would show a cancer that would mean I’d be dead in three months. I felt absolutely no need to pray. But lots of people seem to have a problem accepting that the universe doesn’t consider them special. I wouldn’t criticize them, but I also wouldn’t say you have to feel this.
I consider myself to be an empiricist. I’m pretty resistent to magical thinking, I think.
But I recognize that there are things that we don’t know or understand. What seems like woo isn’t necessarily woo. Take yoga for instance. The practice is ful of woo and woo-believers. But is everything about it “magical”? No.
Unless someone is forcing their magical beliefs on me, I don’t see the benefit in raising an argument over it. I’d like to think I’d have the courage to say something negative if a parent refused to take their kid to the doctor out of religious conviction, but even then I’d probably not say anything. Is this giving them a “pass”? I don’t think so. I think it’s just picking my battles.
Unless you are forcing it on me, why would I care? When my mom died I heard all manner of things, like:
- everything happens for a reason
- she went home to God
- She’s watching over you
Etc., etc. I even got religious sympathy cards. I can tell you not once did I look anyone in the eye and say “No, there is no God, she never went home to one.” I took their comments graciously. The only one I rolled my eyes at a little internally is that “everything happens for a reason” crap. I know everything else came from a kind place.
I work with a TON of people who have lost a baby and they are always thanking God. As long as they thank the doctors and scientists too, what do I care? And even if they don’t, good god almighty, they lost a child.
I never ever stand around with atheists or rationalists and discuss my lack of belief, I admit. The closest I have ever come is to say “I really don’t believe in anything supernatural”. News flash: no one cares.
The only time I get mad is when you want to legislate your religion, make women not have abortions because you believe it’s a holy gift from God, etc.
If being politely and mannerly is giving magical thinking a break, then I guess I do so!
Yes… that’s why I said “can” and “help”, as in might, not as a mandate. You are correct that some people don’t need that and don’t want that. On the other hand, an atheist co-worker of mine, who was going through the grieving rituals of Judaism (it takes a full year) for his deceased father, not because he believed in them but because he had promised the family he would do so, said that going through the motions and routine helped him. Not because he believed in god, but because it helped him recall all the time he had spent with his devout Orthodox father growing up and helped him connect with with rest of the family in a way he hadn’t for years.
I did not mean to imply that there are “deathbed” conversions and I know darn well that there are some foxholes containing atheists.
There’s nothing at all wrong with criticizing stupidity behind its back. The lady who believed that rosary beads can transmute is stupid. Stupid and ignorant, and, ultimately, dangerous to herself, her family, and society. That’s the same kind of thinking that leads people to go to faith healers.
Saying, “What very bad reasoning that was” is perfectly fine. Hell, snorting and saying, “What idiocy!” is also fine. It is idiocy.
No lines of etiquette were crossed, unless some of the others at dinner were very close personal friends or family of the believer in question.
If you feel that strongly, why wouldn’t you just tell that person to her face how stupid she was and that she was dangerous to society?
I’m not sure what anyone gains by discussing this behind her back. I’m not sure that rationalists need to figure out that they don’t believe in rainbow communication or rosary alchemy.
So mean, but not harmful unless she or someone she knows were to overhear. Sort of a mean spirited entertainment at someone else’s expense. Which can be fun - I’m not certainly not going to throw the first stone about mean spirited entertainment at someone else’s expense when the chance of them finding out is near zero.
What use is there in trying to reason someone out of a position she clearly has not reasoned herself into in the first place?
It is perfectly acceptable to think someone’s beliefs are an example of inane and dangerous thinking whilst simultaneously thinking that it is not a productive use of time to discuss these beliefs with them. The two are not mutually exclusive by any means; even if badmouthing her “behind her back” is arguably discourteous, it is not intellectually dishonest. It is, at worst, pointless circlejerking.
Well, one poster just said badmouthing her “behind her back” did not cross any lines of etiquette.
I didn’t say intellectually dishonest, nor did I say that Trinopus should reason her out of her position. I asked why wouldn’t he just tell someone like that right to their face that they are stupid and dangerous to society instead of waiting until they were out of earshot to badmouth them?
And I answered: because it is pointless. The only possible reaction it could elicit is a negative one - and for the sake of what? Self-righteous satisfaction? There is simply no possible situation in which calling someone stupid and a danger to society to their face accomplishes anything, unless the intended effect is on onlookers and not the target.
Apropos the entire matter of discussing her beliefs and their inanity behind her back, it bears mention that while such discussions obviously often devolve into little more than an echo chamber, discussing the exact manner in which her beliefs (or, more specifically, mode of thinking) are dangerous has some merit in and of itself.
What’s the point of telling a third party about this stupid person you just met and how stupid her beliefs are? Makes you feel better about your own beliefs? “Har Har that person is WAY stupider than I am!”
Same to me as “Man, did you see how XXXX was dressed? NO fashion sense at all!”
Same as “Can you believe the music that XXXX listens too? Must be tone deaf to listen to that crap”
Same as any other gossip.
As noted, it’s pointless. Also, it’s unambiguously rude. Gossiping may be rude, but, “Yo! Your beliefs are incredibly stupid” is rude, and no maybe.
Also, she’s small potatoes. If I ever meet Donald Trump, etiquette goes right out the window. “You’re a stupid, bigoted jerk.” But some dim-bulb who believes in magic? Pfui. Not worth a mouthful of warm spit.
Exactly. Then why talk bad about her later? What’s the point?
Because a lot of these people have teeny-tiny…um…self esteem and mocking a grieving mother who’s taking some comfort in a way that they don’t approve of makes them feel better about themselves.
Do you never talk about anyone? If that’s true, you might be a bit of an outlier.
The OP could very well be talking about me.
In November, my husband of almost 23 years died. Over the weekend was my 48th birthday. During that time, I witnessed the first rainbow I’d seen in probably a decade. What did I do? I took a picture and assumed Jaceson was telling me he hadn’t left me alone on birthday, and instead, had sent me something to let me know how much he still loved me.
Silly? Perhaps. Am I addled or delusional? I don’t particularly think so. I am still grieving quite a bit, but I take comfort in my faith. I believe he’s up there waiting on me, so whether this was true or not, it helps me to get through another day when everything is so frightening.
And as a believer, I wouldn’t really care if you (generally speaking) thought this was stupid and discussed it with others. It’s not about you. Also, if you can’t give a pass to those in the grips of a recent loss, I’m not really sure when an appropriate time to do so would be. Even when I was agnostic, I completely understood why others held fast to something, anything, when they’d lost everything else.
I don’t poke anybody if they don’t poke me. Where I draw the line is when adults start harming children, or if people challenge my parenting decisions with supernatural crap. If you ask for it, then you’re going to get it.
Edited to add: I’m not above gossiping about the woo-woo either. But it’s not my mission in life.
I am a small a atheist.
My take on Religion or any other “not rational way of thought”:
There is more than enough misery in the world.
If these beliefs provide comfort or solace to another, is it good.
Anyone who would deny others comfort is as bad as the worst of the “I go to Heaven - all others go to Hell” crowd.
Her actions can be criticized without mocking her, unlike the way you’re mocking those who criticize her belief. Did that make you feel better about yourself?
Yeah, the rosary thing was really weird. You don’t see too many steel rosaries to begin with, let alone steel rosaries that turn to gold. The Blessed Virgin of Alchemy is a new one to me.