They really aren’t a socialist party, though. They’re social democrats and have moved steadily to the right under the current leadership (even before this crisis unfolded). Describing them as a “liberal” government, in the US rather than European meaning of “liberal”, wouldn’t be inaccurate.
I had thought he was saying liberal in the sense of our liberal, but you’re probably right.
They’re not **Greece **now are they? I’ve already stated my opinion that Spain did not a bad job - and Italy in any case finances is debt off of domestic savings for the most part. Everything I have said re the blame is about Greece, not Spain, not Italy.
Nor have you in any way explained how the Germans can possibly be said to bear responsibility for the incompetence and fraud on the Greek Government, nor why a private exporters to private buyers bear responsibility for another country’s Governmental corruption, fraud, and active deception in the market.
If you have some hard figures with cites that somehow Greek government buying of equipment and services (or that said was a heavy contributor to Greek debt build) was heavily German & that somehow the German Government induced that, this entire line of discussion is nothing but a red herring.
EU Euro zone debt was classified by regulatory authorities - national and European - AND private raters as “risk free.”
That means, in real world terms, guaranteed.
It’s the kind of thing that fixed income grannies are supposed to invest in.
This is not Toxic Assets of some exotic rubbish the American I-Banks thought up, this is plain vanilla government debt, by a member of the EU and part of Euro zone.
Well, since the banks and retirement funds were being told by both private rating agencies AND EU authorities the Greek issuances were A-OK, and the Greek Government was actively deceiving via fraudulent numbers EUROSTAT and all the Brussels inquiries, I’d say, No that’s not a realistic proposition.
What the fuck is the bank or retirement fund place Grannie Moeller’s pension savings supposed to do, go to Brussels and say, “Hey mates, we think your statistics authority and the European Central Bank, well they’re just completely wrong about Greece…”
And anyone shorting the market would be attacked by people like you as evil speculators, blah blah.
See above, and in addition, Brussels had claimed that the Greeks had cleaned up, the figures were accepted. What fucking standing do you see for a private investor to win in second guessing that?
But see mate, what I understand is that behind the convenient abstraction of “foreign bank investments” are actually the savings of other ordinary Germans, French, English etc; people’s retirement savings, and I also don’t have a lick of sympathy for the Greeks living high on the hog borrowing Grannie Moeller’s savings - because it’s those kinds of savings that plump for low yielding EU zone bonds - and pissing it away on inflated public salaries, early retirement benefits that would make anyone blush and causing collateral damage to the Spanish who did a respectable job of trying to build themselves up using EU and private cash.
“Banks” are a convenient target to avoid the reality that in fact the Greeks have already wasted working class Germans, French, Dutch, English etc savings.
Fuck the Greeks. If we’re going to defend the EU, I’ll first prefer to defend Spain and Portugal that have at least been properly trying and not spending decades lying.
No, I am not so stupid. but yeah I know people who did.
The bankers and the like deserve every bit of scorn for the explosion of 2008 with that crazy American financial engineering. But this ain’t the same fucking problem.
Why do you think they’re looking to bail out Greece? Because this is an attack on the euro itself. Long-term debt rates have started climbing in Portugal, and it will only spread as investors lose confidence in the currency. It is absolutely in Germany’s interest to keep the contagion from spreading lest it affect its neighbors’ willingness to import German goods.
And I never said that Germany bears responsibility for Greece cooking the books. But they’re the second largest exporter in the world. Their economy is dependent on maintaining a positive trade balance. They need their neighbors to keep buying, even if it means they go into debt. So if they’re going to maintain this whole euro thing, with no real central banking authority and no control over monetary policy by the individual states, then they’ll pretty much have to accept these bubbles and the consequences that follow them.
And in terms of what they spent the money on…like I said, immaterial. They didn’t spend it on anything the other PIIGS didn’t spend it on. It was typical Keynesian stimulus that lowered unemployment, with some pension benefits and extra military spending mixed in. If the global economy hadn’t cratered they’d still be spending and other countries would still be lending to them.
Cite? The only thing I know of that’s termed “risk free” are 3 month T-bills, but it’s always in quotes because they’re only risk free in the practical sense. And who are these European regulatory authorities that are supposedly doing the classifying? The EU doesn’t have it’s own rating agency, though it’s talking about creating one now that they’ve been burned by S&P and Moody’s like everyone else.
So? You don’t think “safe” investments can fail? And Greek government debt was only “safe” if you deluded yourself into believing that the euro provided magic transformative powers of prosperity to its users. Only a handful of countries issue debt that can reasonably be considered “safe,” and Greece was never one of them. The pension funds investing Granny’s money would know that.
And just so I’m clear: No, Greek workers shouldn’t get paid for 13 months a year or be able to retire at 53. That’s ridiculous.
[quote=“MOIDALIZE, post:83, topic:538353”]
Why do you think they’re looking to bail out Greece? [;quote]
It’s self evident, because the Greeks risk blowing up everyone else.
Gives me even less sympathy for them.
The “attack” is merely the edifice built on sand coming down.
I never said otherwise, mate. You, however, said:
That phrase indicates you’re shifting blame to Germany for Greece taking on debt. Germany is quite blameless in Greek idiocy.
Utter tripe, they’ve been spending on current consumption like there was no tomorrow for a full out decade - well before this fucking crisis for fuck’s sake. Spain spent a good chunk on useful reforms and infrastructure, Greece frittered away billions (the fiasco of the Olympics in Greece rather highlight the differences).
The only relevance of this crisis to Greece is that the crisis unmasked their frauds and revealed the non-sustainability of their spend now as opposed to five years from now. Unless you have some magical scenario whereby Greek economy reforms itself and generates enough real growth to pay the debt that is.
Jaysus Americans are provincial.
http://www.talanton.nl/downloads/Risk%20free%20rate%20An%20introduction.pdf
Your US Treasuries are not the only things on the planet for fuck’s sake.
Jaysus: European Central Bank and the fucking Euro zone national central banks, that’s why ECB just changed its rules on accepting Greek national bonds last week!
So!
So, I find it pretty fucking special to be playing … what is that American phrase, Monday Quarterbacking … to blame investors for having gone for Greek debt in the past few years.
That link was interesting, but it doesn’t refute anything I said.
Why did this happen, anyway?
Some smart guys in togas lived there 2500 years ago, so we don’t have to double-check their numbers today?