That was a good deed, indeed…and he’ll get one day a year out of Hell for that. 
He’s the worst prez in recent memory. There are far past Prezs who are arguably worse.
Iraq’s a bad war but it’s not the worst war to happen to America. Our country was more damaged by the Civil War (obviously) and the Vietnam War. So while Bush’s longterm legacy will be defined by Iraq, that alone won’t put him at the bottom of the list.
I think it along with some of the other things Bush has done will put him in the bottom quarter…if not on the worst 10 short list. Even if Iraq turns out perfectly at this point I can’t see Bush’s stock ever getting all that high and would be surprised (assuming I live that long) to see him cross even the bottom half mark. Of course we can’t see into the future and can’t predict how things will work out…and we are all to close to events both intellectually and emotionally…but I can’t see how he could ever get but so high in the relative standings from the perspective of real historian types.
-XT
That’s a fair argument for economic issues like housing and the recession. But a good portion of our current economic problems are due to massive deficit spending - an issue Bush does deserve a major portion of the blame for.
To be sure deficit spending is playing a part, and most of that can be attributed to Bush et al. But the housing crisis has been looming for a long time. The dollar has been kept artificially high for a long time. Many of the problems coming home to roost have been looming for a long time…some of them for longer than GW has been in office (or are effected by events or circumstances that range beyond his term). I was simply pointing out that gonzo’s simplistic Bush is teh sux message is…well, rather simplistic and only has a passing resemblance to reality.
Bush has been a bad president. He has made a lot of mistakes both with his war and economically (as well as myriad other mistakes that run the gamut). He is rightfully considered one of the poorer presidents and IMHO will remain so even if Iraq somehow magically turns out perfectly. But he doesn’t have a lock on the bottom spot…in 200 odd years we have had presidents even worse, who have done worse things and created bigger messes. Mind, there aren’t a LOT of them…but there are a few.
-XT
Perhaps he was talking about the strong economy we supposedly had up to last summer?
While Bush had zero responsibility for the dot com bust, his solution, of tax cuts heavily weighted to the rich, delayed the recovery - at least for most of the country. Greenspan’s solution for the 9/11 slump, low interest rates, certainly had something to do with the bubble, which everyone pretty much ignored until it burst.
I think we can lay the lack of growth in incomes for the past 7 years at Bush’s feet - though some of you may well consider that a good thing.
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Bush has been a bad president. He has made a lot of mistakes both with his war and economically (as well as myriad other mistakes that run the gamut). He is rightfully considered one of the poorer presidents and IMHO will remain so even if Iraq somehow magically turns out perfectly. But he doesn’t have a lock on the bottom spot…in 200 odd years we have had presidents even worse, who have done worse things and created bigger messes. Mind, there aren’t a LOT of them…but there are a few.
-XT
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The title of this thread, if you would care to reread it, is one of the worst presidents. So we don’t have to compare him with Buchanan.
BTW - in response to a crack about LBJ. He didn’t start the war, though he did escalate it. At the time Liberals thought he did great for civil rights but awful in Vietnam, while conservatives, who mostly supported the war, think he did terribly in civil rights and fine in fighting the Commies.
I think it will be increasingly hard to rehab some people’s reputations as digital video archives grow. Future efforts to do so will last as long as it takes to pull out a DVD and watch Bush speak, let alone see a selection of his gaffes.
I experienced this with the Quayle thread that came up recently. I know those quotes, and I remember many of them from the time, but it was stiil possible to think ‘well, maybe he wasn’t really that dumb’. Then I saw a collection of clips, and was a bit shocked all over again.
Bush will leave behind myriad failures, no meaningful sucesses, and plenty of video evidence that he was not thoughtful, prone to petulant irritability, not charming or graceful…
All of this discussion leaves aside the fact that there will be more revelations of malfeasance, corruption and plain badness.
For instance, there was just released new evidence of meetings involving the main administration players in meetings explicitly discussing the use of torture (Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft). Hell, even Ascroft was quoted as saying that history would not judge them kindly.
No, I think it’s fairly safe to say that Bush is the worst we’ve had, with little hope that this will be changed by the passing of time.
I know I’ve said this in another thread (you know, that thread where people were pissed off at Bush?), but he is a bad person. He brought our country down into the muck and mire and motivated otherwise decent people to have to split hairs about the actual threshold defining torture. And we had to have these discussions because the US was already doing it, and people were trying to figure out some weird, twisted definitions that tried to cling to the illusion that we were taking the high road. Well, we weren’t and aren’t taking the high road, and he’s my president and that means that I’m also tainted. And I can’t forgive that.
I take issue with those who argue that other Presidents have done worse things.
What other President has pissed away an almost universal desire of other countries to stand shoulder to shoulder with the USA in its time of need. I remember strongly how I choked up with pride when my PM led the way in stepping up to the plate.
Now I remember with shame how he was either duped by or connived with Bush to launch a foreign war of choice on the basis of lies (and yes, they were deliberate bloody lies) and slithering falsehoods. Add in Katrina, the endemic corruption, the fox guarding the henhouse approach to regulations, the unforgivable delaying of effective action on climate change, turning the USA into a torture nation etc etc.
And observe the total lack of anything equally monumental on the plus side and I can’t think of a worse President.
Reagan did worse things - Iran/Contra and South America in general but he did some good stuff too. Even Nixon went to China. The 18th and 19th century bad presidents are just small-beer amateur bad compared to this.
It’s mind-boggling really. Who would have imagined ten years ago that the question of whether or not torture’s a bad thing would actually be an issue in American politics? That there would actually be people running for office on a pro-torture platform?
The difference between Bush and almost every other two term 20th century president is that he hasn’t done much of anything in office. The obsession with 9/11 and anti-terrorism have driven his administration for almost the entire 8 years.
Outside of that, the one redeeming aspect of his presidency is his refusal to cave in to the nativist anti-immigrant fever on the right these days.
- bolding mine.
What in the blue blazes are you talking about? Sadr’s militia just got done spanking the so-called Iraqi Army – never mind that they (Maliki’s troops) also had American and British air support.
Here, read all about it:
How Moqtada al-Sadr Won in Basra
If he is not the most powerful – and truly independent – political figure in Iraq, he sure as hell is up there with them. Some would argue al-Sistani is the top dog as it were… and spiritually, amongst the (fractured) Shiites they may well be right. But he doesn’t have anything that comes even close to the powerful Mahdi Army in order to operate outside the American-controlled Iraqi Gov. Heck! The man has his own Green Zone in Baghdad, and likely just as secure for him as the original is to the Americans and their Iraqi puppets.
In any event the mere notion that Sadr’s “backing down” simply flies in the face of reality – in fact, he appears to be calling the shots as much as Maliki. The truce he called in Basra was strictly to his benefit; read the article which is really just a primer if you’ve been keeping up with recent events. And again, he’s doing so for the most part outside of the American’s control.
*::::grumble grumble:::: *
Where do some people get their news? From The Ministry Of Disinformation?
Of course, his preferred policy is a “guest worker” program that would allow aliens to work here legally without establishing legal residency leading to citizenship. That shows you where his loyalties lie: With the business interests who want cheap foreign labor.
A lot will depend on who wins the next election. If the Goddess shall cease to avert Her eyes, it will be a Dem administration, which means that the Pubbies will not get more time to bury the bodies in undisclosed locations, the rocks will be lifted and the scurrying vermin beneath inventoried. You think what you know is bad? Imagine what you don’t know.
And, of course, another of my favorite Betty Noyers: the Reagan Papers embargo will be lifted, and we may finally get to see what the Old Fart knew, and when he knew it.
Silver lining: this may, at long last, start to move us away from the unconcious adoration of the Executive that is the bane of our system. We need to take a long, hard, and cold look at what a President is, and what a President is not. We need to put some skids under the notion that the President becomes more than a President under circumstances of war, circumstances that a President has far too much control over. This offers way too much opportunity for exploitation by a fool or a scoundrel. Why, just imagine the destruction if a scoundrel should have the option of commiting an outrage, and then using power derived from that outrage to hide the truth, and even to commit further outrages.
I mean, just imagine what it would be like!
Here! Here!
This administration’s attempt to set up a “unitary Executive”, alone, should guarantee the Shrubster a Barcalounger on the third ring of Historians’ Hell.
Uhhhh–charisma? Don’t think so. He doesn’t have one tenth the charm of Clinton, Carter or Reagan. He just seemed more folksy, down to earth and approachable compared to Gore and Kerry, who both came across as very stiff and not really comfortable with people.
How 'bout some examples?
I think what he has done with AIDS in Africa will do him credit. When the history of the pandemic on that continent is written, if they built statues he would not be on their Rushmore, but he will not miss by a laughable amount & would probably be considered.
If we stick out his Moon-Mars Initiative it is possible in 100 years this administration will be viewed positively in a college-level History of Space Flight: The First 150 Years L-5 Habitat University course.
… and that is about it in my opinion. Stem Cells is a biggie historically I didn’t see mentioned where he has been a total catastrophe & will be remembered so. I think he is probably the 3rd worst President 1900 to today (Nixon & Hoover being worse). I hope he stays there & there is no one in the next 60-100 years who can beat him!
Only, well, how much has he actually done with that “initiative”?
How much (realistically) could any president do with that initiative? However, at least he HAD an initiative for real goals in space…something lacking in most of his predecessors. I’m sure many see that as a bonus but I’m all for space exploration so I suppose this is a small feather in his cap from my perspective. Doesn’t exactly balance the books though…
Hopefully you are kidding. Off the top of my head I’d say Buchanan, Wilson, Nixon, Harding all rank worse than Bush. And then there is the every popular Fillmore. Tyler and Pierce were also worse IMHO. Then there was Carter…
Take your pick. Most of the bozo’s we had leading up to the Civil War were FAR worse…and that is a war that was much bigger of a mess than Iraq could ever be. Kennedy got us into Vietnam and Johnson kept us there…and THAT was a bigger mess as well.
If you seriously think Bush is the be all and end all to worst president all I can say is…break the glass and take out the history book in there because you are in dire need.
-XT