'Real' Ghosts As Proof of an Afterlife...

Honestly, no. Why would you ask for something we all know doesn’t exist. We cannot “measure” ghosts; perhaps because we lack the technology and adequate knowledge of their nature; perhaps because they do not exist; perhaps because they are really aliens. Or angels.

However, I do strongly suspect that even if ghosts do exist, there are those who would insist even the “best” peer reviewed and reproduced evidence was faked. People disbelieve as well as believe by choice as much as by evidence.

I work on the “do not exist” assumption. Until proven otherwise.

That’s an argument that willfully ignorant people exists. It does not follow that we should therefore believe in ghosts, angels and aliens among us before there is sufficient and compelling evidence to do so.

Well, I guess this discussion is about over. But I thought I’d share some of what I have been talking about (i.e., “real” ghost stories):

http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/57d5d685-49a8-ed14-3f9b-20e906286b1b

http://msnvideo.msn.com/?channelindex=4&from=en-us_msnhp#/video/cbc5aca6-e09b-cc91-c4ba-4079922571c7

I just came across these sites recently. But I would call them typical of what I’ve seen.

:slight_smile:

Instead of collecting hundreds of stories, why don’t you spend a little time and effort into investigating just one of them? This thread is going to go absolutely nowhere if all you do is collect up ghost glurge and throw it at us.

As with any claim of extraordinary events, there are a few possibilities:

  1. Those making the claim are lying (hoax).
  2. Those making the claim are not lying, but are mistaken or deceived.
  3. Those making the claim are not lying, but the phenomenon has a natural explanation.
  4. Those making the claim are not lying and the phenomenon is real.

In any randomly selected extraordinary claim, it’s reasonable to assume that 1, 2, or 3 are far, far more likely than 4.

I don’t see why any of the linked claims are different – 1 through 3 are far more likely for all of the claims linked to by the OP.

As someone who also believes in God, but one step further believes in an afterlife (well, sort-of), I can’t agree with the idea that even a verified ghost story would be any sort of evidence either way.

First, how do we verify this ghost? Is it measurable in some way with scientific instruments? Or maybe it’s something that a large number of credible witnesses can see, easily repeatable, but can’t be photographed, filmed, recorded, or otherwise detected. If it’s the former, it doesn’t really say much about the afterlife, since the general idea of the afterlife depends on some non-physical, non-energy aspect of the human, the soul, continues on. If it has physical properties, maybe it has some other physical explanation besides because an actual ghost.

And let’s say maybe it is the latter and we can’t measure it, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it is a soul either. Maybe there’s some other physical explanation that we just haven’t learned about yet or cannot detect yet. Or maybe there’s some other aspect to the nature of the universe that isn’t physical, but isn’t super-natural either.

So, we’d really have to go into some sort of meaningful detail on exactly how we were able to meaningfully verify that a particular ghost is actually a ghost. Quite frankly, considering we can’t even get an idea of what sort of example would definitively prove God exists, if he were so inclined to prove himself, I can’t imagine how would could get a meaningful concensus on something more difficult to define and test, like a ghost.

If you believe in the biblical afterlife, you shouldn’t believe in ghosts. The word “ghost” is used very few times in the bible, and most of the time it’s as a synonym for demons, not human spirits. I don’t recall the passage but one of the only times it’s used to mean a human spirit, it sounds like the person is alive anyway (astral projection?)

The bible tells us that after death the dead all sleep until judgment day. If that’s true, then there should be no such thing as a ghost; at least not the type of ghost that’s aware of itself, anyway. So, even if ghosts were real, they would not be any particular proof of an afterlife. They might provide proof that the biblical afterlife wasn’t real, though.

Bible passages that explain what happens to the dead:
Daniel 12:2
Ecclesiastes 9 verses 5, 10
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
John 5:28-29 etc

The predominance of ghost stories is evidence for the human mind’s capacity for magical thinking. You should check out the work of Joe Nickell, a well-known paranormal investigator. Although he is a skeptic, he goes out of his way to not be a “close-minded debunker.” Rather than boring you with a bunch of books you’ll never read, here are a few interesting Point of Inquiry podcasts in which he talks about investigating paranormal claims, among other things.
[ul]
[li]Skeptical Inquiry vs Debunking[/li][li]Psychic Detectives[/li][li]Humanistic Skepticism[/li][/ul]

And as with everything else in the Bible, this is directly contradicted by other parts of the Bible, where the dead are self aware, and can be seen and heard by the living.

So at least some people are conscious after death, thousands of years (and counting) before the Judgement day. These dead people are aware of themselves, can manifest visibly to living people and be heard by them.

IOW according to the Bible ghosts do exist, not as demons but as actual spirits of dead people descended from heaven.

Now you can call these dead people angels or saints or whatever, but they are functionally identical to ghosts, and utterly incompatible with the biblical verses you quoted that explicitly state that such beings can not exist.

To misquote Ned Flanders: “Lord I’ve always believed in The Bible, even the bits that contradict the other bits.”

And maybe there is a teapot out in space…

I’m curious – when would you be “ready to conclude”?

Using Stephen Jay Gould’s description of science, I’d say at this point “it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent” that there are no such things as ghosts.

You don’t have to lock yourself in. You can say there are no such things as ghosts today and if tomorrow someone actually comes up with convincing evidence, you say “Ok, I was wrong, there are ghosts.”

It also taught you that stoners fight crime, & that Great Danes can speak English (albeit with a strong accent).

I challenge your source.
Jabberjaw is much more convincing. :smiley:

Don’t be ridiculous, he gets No Respect! Woo woo woo! :slight_smile:

Read Spook by Mary Roach. A fascinating look at serious studies of the occult, paranormal, near-death experiences and reincarnation.

Why would a ghost frequent a graveyard ?

I can understand it hanging around somewhere it had a traumatic experience during its lifetime, but it would have no experience of the cemetery, as it had ceased its life when its remains went there .
always supposing that they actually exist of course .

its what you believe …

if you believe they exists, they exist …

if you dont believe in them, you dont …

Pretty sure that is not right -

It doesn’t matter what you think. According to** jfreakofkorn**:

YOU don’t exist. And neither do apostrophes.

Exactly, and since I am still posting, that either means

a) he’s wrong
b) he believes in ghosts, and I am one - which would be extraordinary to say the least.

In any event - I’m very glad that it takes more than ‘simple’ belief for things to actually exist -

board is to express opinion … like you like my opinion, you like it

if you dont like my opinion, well, thats not my problem is it :wink:

Maybe because of all the trash (NSFW) people leave there…