I’m making the assumption that human male-female relationships behind closed doors (not necessarily sexual just private husband-wife relationships) share some similarities worldwide. The latest situation has generated a lot of additional press about how relatively repressed women are under the more conservative Islamic regimes and all the restrictions women operate under.
For those in the know my question is this. Are wives in Islamic cultures really that subservient? If middle class Abdullah sixfalafel of the Islamic world loses his paycheck at the camel races will his wife let him know just what she thinks of him in private? What are the real limits of how rigorously an Islamic wife can take her husband to task for the mundane stupidities and mis-steps we make everyday?
We live next door to an Iranian couple, although they prefer to be described as Persian.
They were supporters of the Shah, and made a strategic exit from Persia following the return of Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini to that country in 1979.
The gentleman concerned was a Big Cheese in the Shah’s administration, although he plays this down more than somewhat. In their living room there is one photograph in particular which draws the eye. This shows him outside his palace in Tehran wearing a chestful of medals, accompanied by other luminaries of the pre-revolutionary era.
Because this message board provides a cloak of anonymity, I can tell you that I have heard some magnificent altercations take place over the garden fence. I can’t say what these disagreements were about since my friends lapse into Farsi on such occasions, either out of deference to their neighbours or, and this is more likely, because it comes naturally.
Let me tell you that the lady of the house is by no means a doormat and, to my untrained ear anyway, she gives as good as she gets.
My neighbours are very hospitable and they are more than happy to break out the scotch when I pitch up on their doorstep, a circumstance which often results in me getting happy as well.
They are quite partial to a glass of wine, but they normally settle for one or two glasses.
I went to Non-Commissioned Officer’s Academy around this time last year. My class leader (Air Force Tech Sergeant, raised in the good ole USA, just like me) was Muslim.
At graduation I had the pleasure of meeting his wife. Well, she was introduced to me, anyway. When I extended my hand and a pleasant verbal greeting, she put her hands behind her back, and looked down. Sergeant Hasim (not his given name, but his new, legally-changed Muslim name) explained to me that she wasn’t permitted to shake my hand or speak to me. Even though he was RIGHT THERE.
<<. Sergeant Hasim (not his given name, but his new, legally-changed Muslim name) explained to me that she wasn’t permitted to shake my hand or speak to me.>>
New converts. Sheesh.
I lived across the street from a copy shop run by a Muslim family who had two daughters around my age. I had a class with one of them in college and never noticed, there or in the shop, either the two daughters or the wife having any problem speaking to strange men, disagreeing with them, or disagreeing to the point of polite argument with their father/husband. I saw a few discussions out back of the shop (hey, I lived on the third floor, and I people-watch) that involved a fair bit of gesturing, and might have been arguments.
They weren’t recent converts to Islam, though, and they had emigrated when their daughters were small.
I suppose my acid test would be: given the sample of what I know of Islam and all the Muslim men I know, I wouldn’t have any problem with dating a Muslim. There are a few religions that I would think twice before dating someone of that faith, mostly because of the disagreements likely to unfold. And I’m about as liberal a feminist nutso as they come.
I think it would depend on the nationality, social class and other things. A Syrian wife would probably have a much stronger role than a Saudi Arabian wife. A woman in an upper class household might have freedoms that a poor woman might not get to enjoy.
There is no single “Islamic culture”.
I remember a professor telling us about dining at a Muslim student’s home. He was married with two daughters. He usually answered any questions directed to his wife, FIRST, but he did explain that it was an older custom-and that he wanted his daughters to grow up more liberated and not like that.
Persians who drink scotch and wine aren’t particularly observant Muslims - nothing against your neighbors, they sound like wonderful people, but they are probably atypical Muslims, if they are even religious.
As saudade said, it’s got a lot more to do with their regional culture than religion - a lot of the negative attitudes towards women in some Islamic countries are remnants of pre-Islamic traditions.
On a semi-related note - I live in a neighborhood with a large Muslim population (we are just down the street from a big mosque), and since the attacks I’ve noticed less and less women wearing the traditional dress, probably to avoid hate crimes. The women still stand out some, as they are about the only women wearing long dresses, long sleeves, and hats in this weather. I’m wondering if maybe they will continue to wear Western fashions after things calm down.
It’s worth noting that, in societies which cling to Islamic fundamentalism and old-fashioned mores, the kind of societies that feminists regard as appallingly patriarchal, it’s invariably the Moslem WOMEN who are most insistent upon retaining the old ways, and who enforce all the writte and unwritten codes of behavior!
Let a woman try to walk the streets of Kabul or Riyadh wearing “indecent” clothing, and see who it is that besets her, calling her a whore and insisting she dress in the traditional manner. Odds are, it will be the older Moslem WOMEN!
But then, this isn’t unique to Islam. In MOST “patriarchal” religions, it’s the WOMEN who make the kids go to services, who teach them the rules, etc.
I don’t know, astorian, the Metowah (sp?), or religious police in Saudi Arabia are MEN that walk around all day bullying people, sometimes beating them in the street. Ditto the thugs in Afghanistan; yesterday I saw a piece of videotape that made my blood boil. Some fuckin’ asshole self-appointed jerk of a guy was clubbing the crap out of a pair of women.
Perhaps the women DO advocate the keeping of traditional ways, but it seems that this kind of religious fascism is sexless.
I went to a small university (3000 students) in south Arkansas with a surprisingly large international population. I’ve been blessed with meeting people from Bangladesh, Nepal, India, Pakistan, Turkey and Brazil.
One of the questions I asked one of my Bangladeshi friends was whether women were required to wear the traditional dress. He said it was choice, and also pointed out that the prime minister of his country was a woman (don’t know about now.) I can’t imagine a prime minister being subservient to her husband, though I suppose it can happen. Another one of those Bangladeshi friends had a Brazilian girlfriend that was most definitely not subservient to him.
I have been to many Muslim countries and have had these same curiosities, I was fortunate during one journey to have as a companion a ‘local’, it really helped me to understand what I couldn’t really figure out for myself.
Lately, I hear plenty about how OBL is from a rich Saudi family, one of 50+ children of a man with many wives. My understanding is the in Islam multiple wives are permited ONLY if the husband can keep them all happy and treat them all equally. Most of the people I met seemed to think this meant it was not to happen as it was clearly impossible to treat them equally and and keep them all happy.
What women wear and whom they are allowed to be out on the street with is something closer to a local cultural standard. Within one country there are wide variations between city and countryside and even province to province in most places.
I admit I went into these cultures with a pretty dim view of how they treated women, being a feminist and all. But my view changed substantially after exposure and immersion in them.
The surface appearance and the reality were substantially different. While it seems the women are forbidden to go here, or wear this or that, become slaves to their mother in law, when they marry etc.
While all of that is true, they also eventually get to be the head of the household when Mother in law dies. It’s true that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. In most of the places the men I met and interacted with were so tied to their Mama’s it was unbelievable. Outside it looked like they ran everything, all puffing and bravado. But the truth was it was their Mama’s that decided their every business, carreer, educational or matrimonial decision. When you think about it, they live with their Mama’s until they die, with their wives and children.
This is only my opionion and my personal experience, hope I didn’t offend anyone.
I worked in Saudi Arabia for several years. I’m sure there is as much or more variation among Muslim communities throughout the world as there is among Christian, but elbows’ observations are very consistent with my experience in Saudi. The women wield huge power, huge.
It takes a while for us to adjust to the outward behaviors that seem emblematic of opression, but if you want to find out what really matters you must ASK THE WOMEN.
All of our posturing and opinions matter zilch.
Anthracite, you don’t have to respect anything. But it is wise to be open to behaviors that you don’t understand, lest you become inclined to attack them.
We live in an area with a high Pakistani/Indian/Arab-american population and one of the things that strikes me as odd is that while shopping is delegated as women’s work, the women aren’t actually allowed to carry/handle/have money. (Not always the case, obviously, but I’ve noticed it on several occasions.) In other words, the wife and kids go through the store shopping and filling the cart with the husband following, arms folded taking no part. When checking out, the woman places all the items on the belt, handles coupons, haggles with the cashier (when applicable) but when the total is announced, she steps aside and the husband takes out his wallet and pays for everything. Like I said, I do see plenty of the women out and about (I assume) with their own money but I have seen some who aren’t permitted to have it.
(It occurs to me as I type this that perhaps it’s customary that when the husband is present, he’s expected to pick up the tab, but the women might have their own money to use when they’re alone. I just remember overhearing two gossipy-types buzzing about “oh well they don’t let the women have money, you know” and I started to notice it more after that.)
While I have no experience with Muslim realtionships, I have a great deal of experience with Nepali/Hindu relationships, another society wherein women are repressed.
In my experience, women are free to rant, rave and argue all they want within the home. The men are equally free to totally disregard everything they say. The men are also free to smack their wives around when they have had enough.
As with any human realtionship, the level of respect given is dependant on the individuals involved. I see plenty of healthy relationships in Nepal full of mutual respect and love. It is also true that, because of their laws favoring men and tradition of not treating women as equals, a woman stands very little chance against a husband who treats her like dirt.
voguevixen, it really might be that the husband is expected to pay, not that the wife can’t have money.
My former roommate was Muslim. She said several interesting things about marriage. Her parents were going to arrange hers after she finished grad school; she would be expected to keep her maiden name (that surprised me, since 90% of American women don’t); her husband would pay all the household and children’s expenses; she could keep all the money she made (which seemed a bit unfair, because, considering her field and ambition, she’s going to make a ton of money); her husband would automatically get custody of the children if they divorced.
I can easily imagine N. going to the store, piling up a whole bunch of expensive stuff, and then standing back and letting her husband pay. Actually, the image is so accurate, it made me laugh. I’ve never met anyone who was so certain of her rights as N.
I think I understand it pretty well. Women are slaves, second-class citizens, chattel in the eyes of the men. I can’t be open to the idea of a woman who is so subjugated and cowed by her “master” that she is not allowed to shake hands, handle money, or even speak to a stranger. I will attack this attitude and belief where I find it, and I’m not sorry for feeling this way at all.
But this is not GD, so I would rather discuss this further elsewhere.
LOL! Ariadne, that is just TOO funny! Your former roommate sounds really cool, and I say more power to her. That’s not a bad arrangement at all for her, except if the husband turns out to be abusive. Then she and the kids are screwed.
As far as the relationships go in general, I do think that there’s more going on than meets the eye. I imagine that the women, when and where they can, do manage to manipulate things so that they do have a lot of power, but of course a lot depends on whether or not they get a husband who won’t physically or mentally abuse them.
Bluesman, that woman wasn’t PERMITTED to shake her husband’s friend’s hand in front of her husband. That’s just bizarre. I guess I’m going to sound ignorant here, but I just can’t wrap my mind around cultural/religious? strictures that prohibit men from touching women they aren’t related or married to and that prohibit women from touching or even speaking to men they aren’t related or married to. I just don’t understand. Do they think that they’re going to get cooties from the opposite sex or something? What happens if a Muslim fella sees a woman who’s just fallen and injured herself? Is he prohibited from rendering her any kind of assistance? And aren’t those religious police that go around beating on women who are violating some modesty code breaking that same modesty code by touching women they aren’t related or married to? Don’t get me wrong. I can try to be tolerant of that for other folks if that’s what truly floats their boats, but it must be really awful to live that way. To be scared to give someone a hug or shake their hand just because they are of the opposite gender? Why are the men scared of the women, and the women scared of the men? I just don’t understand this Muslim notion of modesty, if that is what they call it. And the idea that women can’t handle money or work outside the home really doesn’t make sense either. What if their husbands get sick or die and they have no other male relatives who can work or go out and interact with the outside world? Then what will they do under such a restrictive system?
It can also be seen as a sign of respect. In many cultures you did not speak directly to royalty or touch them, you went through their subordinates. Interpret it however you like, but know that you do NOT understand it as members of the culture do. There are different ways of showing respect, and in my experience Muslims have a lot of respect for women, and different ways of showing it.
<<What happens if a Muslim fella sees a woman who’s just fallen and injured herself? Is he prohibited from rendering her any kind of assistance? >>
I’m sure if someone was in danger that it would be okay to help them out even if you normally wouldn’t touch them, just as if your house was on fire you would run outside naked (which you would not normally do).
