Really Guys? AKA Sexism on the Board

[Broomstick]

@Morgenstern

Gonna see if I give a fuck, but it’s looking like I don’t.

And yet you care enough to post…

Between that and kayaker’s mansplaining it’s clear some of you men don’t get it. If someone says “I found what you said offensive” you don’t say “Here’s why you shouldn’t be offended” you say “I’m sorry, I didn’t intend offense, I intended to make a joke”. That’s if you’re a member of polite society. If you’re a member of asshat society I suppose you just don’t give a fuck, but you keep posting anyway.

[Tamerlane]

@TriPolar

I don’t have anything to apologize for.

I think steatopygia were saying there is not a lot of apologizing in this thread period, mumbling or otherwise, rather than implying you personally should apologize.

Folks like Morgenstern aren’t apologizing, they’re doubling-down.

[TroutMan]

@TriPolar

I don’t have anything to apologize for. I didn’t making any sharing jokes in that thread or defend anyone who did in this one. And I made clear what my remarks were about because I felt certain at least one person wouldn’t bother to read them and consider what I said.

I don’t think steatopygia was saying you needed to apologize. Like them, I wasn’t really sure what you were trying to say. Your anecdote about men offering an apology and minding their manners doesn’t seem to fit this thread, where instead of apologies you have idiots like Morgenstern doubling down, and special little bro-flakes like Rick Sanchez chiming in because they’re afraid they won’t be able to make sexist jokes without repercussions.

I don’t think you were trying to say anything bad, it just wasn’t clear to me what you were trying to say.

[John_Mace]

@Rick_Sanchez

Yeah, it’s a useful index of which posters do and do not have a sense of perspective.

As is often said: It’s not [so much] the crime. It’s the cover up.

Sunny Daze seems like a genuinely nice person, and I don’t see her going all Medieval PC on anyone’s ass for an off-hand joke. She said she was offended, and asked for folks to stop. That’s really all. It could and should have ended right then and there.

[steatopygia]

@TriPolar

I don’t have anything to apologize for. I didn’t making any sharing jokes in that thread or defend anyone who did in this one. And I made clear what my remarks were about because I felt certain at least one person wouldn’t bother to read them and consider what I said.

Wasn’t talking about you. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Just quoted you for the “making apologies”.

[Broomstick]

@TroutMan

special little bro-flakes

^ I like that: “bro-flakes”. Mind if I use it?

[Richard_Parker]

@Merneith

Sure. I earlier said that these guys are reinforcing the societal attitude that uppity women ought to be smacked down. This is the basic attitude underlying all of western civ for thousands of years. The difference is that I don’t see any reason to assume that they have good intentions while continuing to reinforce it.

I mean - why should we? Can you imagine any other subject were you see these jerks acting out - whether it’s racism or antisemitism or whatever - and rush in to defend him of the suspicion of having bad intentions?

If kayaker called a black member of this board, “Aunt Jemima”, would you be in a huge hurry to insist that he has “good intentions”.

If Morgenstern told a Jewish poster to “keep his big nose to himself” would you shrug and say, “well, it’s just so easy to be bigot but he probably doesn’t have bad intentions”.

No. Of course you wouldn’t. It’s ridiculous even to type it out.

So when a sexist barges into a thread where a woman is complaining about sexism and calls her a little girl - why are you here whining about how hard it is to avoid sexism, and telling us we should assumes the sexist has good intentions.

Richard, sexists do not have good intentions.

People who insist that we should give sexists the benefit of the doubt - also, do not have good intentions.

The people with good intentions are the ones standing up for the women, not the sexists. Even when it’s hard. Even when it goes against thousands of years of ingrained tradition that white boys get the benefit of the doubt.

If you have actual good intentions - stand up for the victims of sexism, not the sexists.

That’s nice and all, but it is not reality. The same is true for racism.

You can try to shame people into doing the work by pretending they have bad intentions. But that doesn’t work all that well either.

What’s more important, moral outrage or actually getting people to do the work?

[steatopygia]

@Richard_Parker

That’s nice and all, but it is not reality. The same is true for racism.

You can try to shame people into doing the work by pretending they have bad intentions. But that doesn’t work all that well either.

What’s more important, moral outrage or actually getting people to do the work?

I don’t see moral outrage or shaming in Merneith’s post.
I see calm explanation. I believe that IS the way to get people to change their actions. Should be anyway.

[Grrr]

@John_Mace

As is often said: It’s not [so much] the crime. It’s the cover up.

Sunny Daze seems like a genuinely nice person, and I don’t see her going all Medieval PC on anyone’s ass for an off-hand joke. She said she was offended, and asked for folks to stop. That’s really all. It could and should have ended right then and there.

Saying Sunny Daze is nice is a bit of an understatement. Hell, she made a point of pitting the comments, rather than the posters:

[QUOTE=Sunny Daze]
FTR - I like these Posters. I don’t like this content. Cut this shit out.

[/QUOTE]

Fuck. That couldn’t have been easy to say. But despite that, some assholes decided to double down.

A-fucking-mazing!

[TroutMan]

@Broomstick

^ I like that: “bro-flakes”. Mind if I use it?

I can’t claim originality. Go for it.

[puzzlegal]

Thanks for starting this thread, Sunny Daze. I didn’t read the other one, and probably wouldn’t have been very offended by the “sharing” comment if I had. But some of the responses here are, um, unfortunately illuminating. Wow, some guys really feel the need to make sure everyone knows they are assholes.

[Darren_Garrison]

And what about the guy who obliquely made a similar comment in ATMB when predicting that the male/female ratio would be around the inverse of Surf City?

Oh, crap–that was me…

[Sunny_Daze]

Well, that was so subtle that it flew right over my head. I’m going to have to research it before I get offended. Does the fact that you mentioned it mean that you want me to be offended, you’re mentioning it for the sake of completeness, or that you now realize that some of us would prefer you didn’t do this again?

[Covfefe]

Surf City has one of my misheard lyrics from childhood. I always thought it was “2 girls for every board”. I didn’t know the reference Darren was making til I googled it.

[Darren_Garrison]

@Sunny_Daze

Well, that was so subtle that it flew right over my head. I’m going to have to research it before I get offended. Does the fact that you mentioned it mean that you want me to be offended, you’re mentioning it for the sake of completeness, or that you now realize that some of us would prefer you didn’t do this again?

More along the lines of being idly curious if you are offended by the song Surf City (with which mention I voiced my prediction that the male:female ratio would be in the range of 2:1.)

[Richard_Parker]

@steatopygia

I believe that IS the way to get people to change their actions. Should be anyway.

“I believe it IS, should be anyway” is exactly the problem I’m identifying. You gotta separate your IS and your OUGHT.

The reality is that lots of bigots in the world don’t realize why what they’re saying and doing is bigoted. You can refuse to accept that–usually because it makes your moral calculus easier–but it doesn’t change the reality.

[John_Mace]

@Darren_Garrison

More along the lines of being idly curious if you are offended by the song Surf City (with which mention I voiced my prediction that the male:female ratio would be in the range of 2:1.)

Oy, I can’t believe I missed that reference. That was from my era!!

Somehow I was thinking Surfers Paradise (in Australia) or some actual place and that doesn’t quite jive with what you were getting at. The italics should have been a hint, too!!

[TriPolar]

@steatopygia

Wasn’t talking about you. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Just quoted you for the “making apologies”.

That’s ok, it’s a Pit thread, my point didn’t fit in.

[Sunny_Daze]

@Darren_Garrison

More along the lines of being idly curious if you are offended by the song Surf City (with which mention I voiced my prediction that the male:female ratio would be in the range of 2:1.)

No, not offended. The lyrics observe that there are 2 girls for every guy, which is the observation you were making about the ratio here. There is a difference between that and the “sharing” joke, which was more than observational.

[steatopygia]

@Richard_Parker

“I believe it IS, should be anyway” is exactly the problem I’m identifying. You gotta separate your IS and your OUGHT.

The reality is that lots of bigots in the world don’t realize why what they’re saying and doing is bigoted. You can refuse to accept that–usually because it makes your moral calculus easier–but it doesn’t change the reality.

I’m not “refusing to accept that”, I’m picking my battles. I believe at least one of the posters that the OP was aimed at, is simply “doubling down”. I also believe, as I stated, that calm explanation is effective in this situation.

You described this calm explanation as “moral outrage” and “shaming”.