Really silly Wizard of Oz question (NO SPOILERS)

Cafe Society
21

Munchkin#1-‘Surrender Dor . . . o . . .thy’. Oh no!

Munchkin#2-We had better do what she says!

M#3-Who?The Witch or Dorothy?

M#2-The Witch, you fool! Why would I possibly mean Dorothy?

M#3-Well, the message is directed at 'er, innit? It says ‘Surrender, Dorothy’ plain as day. I say, we go to Dorothy, and ask 'er if she wants to surrender.

M#2-No! No! No! It says ‘Surrender Dorothy’! Clearly the witch is telling us, the munchkins, to surrender Dorothy.

M#1- I’m not sure what it means exactly. Maybe she was going to write more. But, she ran out of smoke. Maybe, the whole message was ‘Surrender Dorothy Or Else’

M#2How would that be any better? It’s just as ambiguous isn’t it?!

M#3-It’s a shame that the good witch of the south 'as the only copy of Strunk And White’s The Elements Of Style in Oz. A comma after Dorothy would make it clear that the message is an imperative directed to Dorothy. While the adding ‘To Me’ on the end would clearly indicate that the message is directed to us munchkins.

M#1-It makes you wonder how she got to be a witch with such sloppy writing skills.

M#2-What?! Do you think you go to witch school and they give you exams with essay questions? ‘What flying monkeys mean to me’ in 500 words, ‘Why black makes for a better hat’ in 300, and so forth?

M#1-Well what do you think they do there?

M#2-They practice cackling, screaming at henchmen, making small child wet themselves, being more wicked-that sort of thing.

M#1-What about good witches?

M#2-Well, they go to a different school obviously.

M#1-How do you know all this?

M#2-I’m very well read.

M#1-You’re making it up!

M#3-I think we should bring our attention back to the flying psycho over’ead. Unless anothe 'ouse should spontaneously drop on 'er, we’re in trouble.

(All three stand silently. They crane their necks and search the skies)

M#3-'ow much longer should we wait?

M#1-It should be any minute now.

M#3-What makes you say that?

M#1-Well, clearly, Dorothy’s was just the first sign of house raining season.

M#2-House raining season!? House! Raining! Season!

M#1-It’s a new weather pattern caused by that global warming.

M#2-(stunned, gape-mouthed, silence)

M#1-The fall of the first house in Munchkinland will be an annual thing. Like the swallows returning to the Vinkus.

M#3-There are no swallows in Vinkus.

M#1-Then how do the coconuts get to Vinkus?

M#3-What do coconuts have to do with this?

M#1-The migrating swallows carry the coconuts with them to Vinkus.

M#3-A swallow could never carry a coconut! They’re too 'heavy?

M#1-Swallows are not too heavy to carry coconuts.

M#3-I mean that the coconuts are too 'eavy. A swallow could never pick up a coconut. Swallows are too small. Tell 'im

M#2-That depends. What type of swallow are we discussing-African or European?

22

But one of the EC inhabitants says, “Who’s Dorothy?”, so I would have to say not all of them realize who Dorothy is. I think she (the Witch) was talking to Dorothy.
Yeah, they all saw that weird chick with the red sparkly shoes come in to the Emerald City with the big silver metal guy, the straw guy and the lion, but they might not realize she’s Dorothy. Remember, they ran to the Wizard, hoping he would explain. (“The Wizard will explain, the Wizard will explain!”) They all ran to the entrance to the Wizard’s place.
The Guard tells them all (the EC citizens) to go away, and that’s when the Lion sings his solo, “If I Were King Of The Forest.”
Then Dorothy cries about never going home, the Guard cries buckets and promises to let them in to see the Wizard. That’s when they get their task of bringing back the Wicked Witch’s broomstick.

Yeah, I’ve seen the movie too many times and yes, I do need a life. :rolleyes:

23

It’s clearly an imperative to the people of Emerald City to surrender Dorothy. Please note: Dorothy goes to the door to ask to admittance to the Wizard, the guard says no, and she says, “But I’m Dorothy.” “The witch’s Dorothy?” asks the guard, and goes to see about admittence.

If the message were “Surrender, Dorothy” then the guard’s response would have been: “So, are you going to surrender?”

The guard (at least) and the Wizard clearly interpret this as a command directed against the City.

24

I always read it as telling Dorothy to give herself up. Or possibly telling the Lion, Scarecrow and Tinman to hand her over.

Pssst DocCathode. Point of fact - there are no munchkins in the Emerald City. A multicolored horse, yes. Little folk? No. :wink:

Twiddle

25

After reading CK’s post, I realized that I had misplaced the scene.

I haven’t watched the movie in years.

26

Don’t think Geo. W. had anything to do with it, but during a pre-war protest in San Francisco, there was a plane flying overhead with the banner “GIVE UP SADDAM … YOU HAVE NO CHANCE”. At first I thought the pilot had been reading a little too much Herb Caen, but after this thread, I now realize he was telling those on the ground that they had no chance to give him up, since he was nowhere to be found in the city.

27

OK, I have another question related to this point.

The Wizard, the guard, the Taxi driver and the Emerald City doorman are all played by the same actor, Frank Morgan. (he also plays Prof. Marvel). In the movie, are some of these characters SUPPOSED to be the Wizard in disguise? He is a recluse, no one ever sees him. Is it possible he disguises himself as his own guard, or a taxi driver, in order to learn what is going on outside his palace? That would explain how he knows about Dorothy and her friends when they come into the Wizardly presence.

Or was it just a budget saving measure to avoid hiring additional actors?

28

Its ambiguous.

Sure you can make arguments either way, but you can’t resolve it (without actually asking the witch herself).

I doesn’t really matter, does it? I mean if the inhabitants of the Emerald City interpret it as applying to them and surrender Dorothy then the witch is happy. If Dorothy interprets it as applying to her and surrenders then the witch is happy. I really don’t think she’ll quibble.

29

It’s really a code meant to activate the machines in all the movie goes /tv watchers heads which gives complete control of their higher thought processes to a small cat in a locked box hermetically sealed in a mayonaisse jar on Funk and Wagnell’s porch.

A particularly nasty kitty, too…

30

It is clearly directed at Dorothy. Even when the Wizard is aware that she is WWW’s “Dorothy” he merely tells her (via the returning guard) “Go on home! The Wizard says go away!” Dorothy’s tears and her tale of Auntie Em soften the guards heart and they are allowed in.

It is made plain that the guard is the Wizard in retrospect because at the changing of the guard all he does is invert his moustache.

I’m only guessing though, it’s not the kind of movie I would ever watch more than 10 times.

31

Since, unlike the books, Oz is a fantasy land strictly in the mind of Dorothy (or, at the very least, this is what’s suggested at the end of the movie), and since the fantasy land is centered around Dorothy and her reactions to the events happening, then I’m thinking it an ultimatum delivered to Dorothy herself.

The Wicked Witch of the West makes no other attempts to get ahold of Dorothy through other people (the winged Bubbles notwithstanding; the WWotW controlled them), otherwise she probably would have made the same demand of the Munchkins all the way back at the beginning of the yellow brick road.

It seemed to me that, throughout her entire presence in the movie, the Wicked Witch focused almost solely on Dorothy. Sure, the pointy-hatted baddie did threaten Dorothy’s companions, but she never tried to form an alliance with them–or force them into one.

I’m sure someone will be in to tell me how much, what color and the density of the smoke I’m probably blowin’ out my arse, but until then…

I’m convinced I’m right. :wink:

32

Ok… Look the Emerald city would not panic and ask the wizard what to do if it was a message directed to one person. I mean why would they get all scared if it was a personal message? No they realize it is an implied threat against the city by the witch and they turn to the Wizard to protect them because they have no idea who Dorthy is.

Also if she wanted to deliver a personal Surrender message to Dorthy why didn’t she do it when She was on the Tin Woodsman’s roof? Perhaps she had no power to get Dorthy so she needed someone to turn her in.

See simple.

Now the bigger mystery:
How the hell was that Hour glass supposed to kill Dorthy and when it ran out why didn’t she die?

33

Damn, I have the same affliction as the WWW. My punctuation appears to be impaired

34

I too, have always thought the message was directed at Dorothy. Now I see a new view point that I will have to consider.
However kaylasdad99, I think skywriting in Arabic would be pretty difficult.

35

No, no, no. That was simply how much time she hadleft till the witch killed her. It was a stalling device while the witch tried to figure out how she was going to rid herself of that meddling kid and her dog.

36

But the greenies hanging out in Emeraldville by and large did not know who Dorothy was, even with the color-challenged equine-led procession. And once certain people did found out who Dorothy was, no one (and this is fairly important, I think) suggested handing her over to protect the city dweller’s freedom, liberty and right to wear funny clothes.

My thoughts are that if the writers really wanted that threat to taken as one given to the city itself, then at least one character would have shouted out, “Hand the Kansas hussy over! The tornado gave her a blow-job, but did we get one?! Tease!”

Or summthin’ like that.

Besides, at these sites: Here, here, here, and here, the original message was supposed to have read “Surrender Dorothy or Die! WWW” and the final phrase was cut off due to either being too frightening for the children (some sources say so) or too long for the screen (others say that).

37

Plus, the last revised script of March 15th, 1939, has this passage reading:

Now, I’m off to see the Whizzard as I have to pee really, really lots. :slight_smile:

38

[OT]Why do I love the Dope? Threads like this.[/OT]

39

Well that puts the scene in a whole new light.

Re-Hourglass
I also saw this as nothing more than a mundane clock. The classic villian always gives the hero time to ponder his doom. You never throw Flash Gordon in the pit of carnivourous hypersnakes. You suspend him over it and leave a bottle of acid to slowly eat through the rope.

Particularly sadistic villians will reappear and execute their victims before the deadline, in order to cause addittional fear.

Re-Monkeys
I haven’t read the book in years either. However, the monkeys do not serve the witch willingly. It’s akin to the classic genie. The witch can call on the monkeys services 3 times only. This is why she hasn’t formed an air force and bombed the rest of Oz into submission.

40

Re-monkeys? :confused:
Is that some sort of cloning joke?