Rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem

[dtilque]

@carnivorousplant

There can be no prophets because there is no temple.

Why the prerequisite of a temple for prophethood?

I’ll admit that I haven’t extensively studied the scriptures (either Jewish or Christian OT) but I got the impression that prophets were mostly self-appointed busybodies who went around pointing out that the king was violating some rule or another. Or pointing out the general immorality and predicting doom and gloom as a result. No one really likes these kind of people.

[carnivorousplant]

@dtilque

Why the prerequisite of a temple for prophethood?

That’s from Mrs. Plant, I can’t vouch for it and she has no cite.

[Gbro]

@Pleonast

In this board’s long tradition of asking Jewish questions just as the Sabbath is starting, I have one.

There’s a list of criteria that must be fulfilled to properly rebuild the Temple. From what I’ve read, it’s generally considered impossible, or something only the Messiah can accomplish.

But the Temple was rebuilt once before. How was that accomplished? Why was the rebuilder at that time not consider the Messiah?

I’ve read through several Wikipedia articles, but they don’t answer these theological questions.

John Chapter 2 verse 18-22,

18Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

John 18 verse 33-36,

33Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. “It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

36Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Luke Chapter 23 verse 44,

Jesus’ Death
44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

When the curtain was torn in two there was no longer a Holiest of Holy place any longer. Therefore no temple.
In 70 AD when the building that housed the Holiest of Holy places was torn down it surly wasn’t the temple! The Resurrection of Christ in 3 days was the rebuilding of the Temple!
That some may not understand this is very biblical;)

[Captain_Amazing]

Except firstly, there’s no independent evidence outside of the gospels that the curtain WAS torn in two, and secondly, even if it was, it wouldn’t stop the Holy of Holies from being the Holy of Holies…the curtain would just be put back up.

And Mrs. Plant is wrong. You don’t need the Temple to have prophets, and most of the prophets didn’t have anything to do with the Temple.

[Johnny_Q]

@Captain_Amazing

No, rebuilding the temple is just one of the requirements to be declared the Messiah. The Messiah has to:

1. Be a king

2. Be of David’s line

3. Study the Torah

4. Observe the commandments

5. Make the nation observe the commandments
   **6. Fight wars for God against the enemies of God
   **
   If he does those, he’s the presumed Messiah. Then, there are four more requirements for the presumed Messiah.

6. He has to be successful in the wars

7. He has to defeat all of Israel’s neighbors

8. He has to build the temple.

9. He has to bring the Jews around the world back to Israel.

If he does all of those things, then he’s the Messiah.

So the Mystery Guest will be something of a Jihadist?

And why does an Almighty God need someone to kill for him?

[Todderbob]

@Johnny_Q

And why does an Almighty God need someone to kill for him?

Really? That’s the bit you choose to nitpick in a thread about religion?
Not the “world created in 7 days,” not “sinners to hell,” not any of that stuff?

[Captain_Amazing]

@Johnny_Q

And why does an Almighty God need someone to kill for him?

Well, if you haven’t noticed, the policy of “waiting for God to wipe out the anti-Semites” hasn’t really been all that effective. Like the Rambam said about it:

The king’s intent and goal shall be to exalt the true religion, to fill the world with justice, to smash the power of the wicked, and to fight G-d’s wars. For ideally, we do not crown anyone king unless he is prepared to pursue justice and war, as it says, “Our king will judge us, go forth before us and wage our wars”. Likewise, Avigail said of David that he fought G-d’s wars.

[Captain_Amazing]

Here’s an English translation of the Rambam’s “The Laws Concerning Kings”, which is the section of his Mishnah Torah about the coming of the Messiah, including the parts that have been censored.

http://www.kesser.org/moshiach/rambam.html

[carnivorousplant]

@Captain_Amazing

And Mrs. Plant is wrong. You don’t need the Temple to have prophets, and most of the prophets didn’t have anything to do with the Temple.

Thanks, Captain. My Step Daughter Accepted in Rabbinical School agrees with you.

[Captain_Amazing]

Congratulations to your stepdaughter!

[Pleonast]

Thanks for the replies so far. With the Sabbath nearly over, hopefully we’ll get some posts from those who observe it. I’m still wondering how they managed to rebuild it. Was the exact location of it still in living memory? I don’t know all the requirements for building it (thus this thread), but I recall a lot of them were very difficult.

Gbro, you’re answering the question of why Christians do not want to rebuild the Temple, which is not what I’m asking about. Johnny Q and others, this is a General Questions thread asking about Jewish law. It should have factual answers. Please take religious quibbles to another thread. Thanks.

[carnivorousplant]

@Pleonast

Was the exact location of it still in living memory?

Sure, the Western (wailing) Wall was part of it.

[Captain_Amazing]

Just to nitpick, the Western Wall wasn’t part of the Temple itself. When Herod decided to expand the Temple, he faced the problem that the Temple was on top of a hill (the Temple Mount). So, he elevated the surrounding land to make the hill bigger. The Western Wall was part of the retaining wall to hold the extra dirt.

[carnivorousplant]

@Captain_Amazing

Congratulations to your stepdaughter!

Thanks!

[carnivorousplant]

@Captain_Amazing

The Western Wall was part of the retaining wall to hold the extra dirt.

I didn’t want to get to complicated. It is how the location is known, anyway.

[Gbro]

@Captain_Amazing

Just to nitpick, the Western Wall wasn’t part of the Temple itself. When Herod decided to expand the Temple, he faced the problem that the Temple was on top of a hill (the Temple Mount). So, he elevated the surrounding land to make the hill bigger. The Western Wall was part of the retaining wall to hold the extra dirt.

Herod tried to restore the Temple for his own glory, but why not he was a fake king in the 1st place.
Like I posted previous, The temple was no more after the “KING” Died on the Cross!
Remember herod built pagan temple’s, Killed his wife, and killed his own children.
Didn’t he order the killing of baby boys in Jerusalem?

[Chronos]

Just in case you didn’t notice what forum this is in, Gbro, we’re still in General Questions, not Great Debates.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Gbro

Herod tried to restore the Temple for his own glory, but why not he was a fake king in the 1st place.
Like I posted previous, The temple was no more after the “KING” Died on the Cross!
Remember herod built pagan temple’s, Killed his wife, and killed his own children.
Didn’t he order the killing of baby boys in Jerusalem?

I don’t know how you define “fake king” in regards to King Herod. He did usurp the throne from the Hasmoneans, and certainly there were a lot of people who questioned his legitimacy, but he had Roman support and was able to hold on to the throne and pass the kingship down to his sons.

He killed one of his wives (he had five), and three of his sons. and did build a temple to Augustus and to Roma in Caesarea. As for the killing of baby boys, one of the gospels talks about him ordering the death of infants in Bethlehem in an attempt to kill Jesus, but there’s no evidence outside of the bible for it, or even that Herod the Great had ever heard of Jesus. Herod was a pretty nasty guy, though.

As for Jesus, he didn’t fill the Jewish messianic requirements, so, according to Jewish theology, he wasn’t the messiah. Christians believe he was, though, and he’s considered so in Christian theology.

[Gbro]

@Captain_Amazing

I don’t know how you define “fake king” in regards to King Herod. He did usurp the throne from the Hasmoneans, and certainly there were a lot of people who questioned his legitimacy, but he had Roman support and was able to hold on to the throne and pass the kingship down to his sons.

Let me put it this way,
If Governor Tim Pawlenty decided he wanted to exercise his authority and and name me, Gbro as the Chief of the Leech Lake Band of Chippewa, well I would be a fake Chief just as herod was a fake king.
He was appointed by the Romans and wasn’t a decedent of David.

As for Jesus, he didn’t fill the Jewish messianic requirements, so, according to Jewish theology, he wasn’t the messiah. Christians believe he was, though, and he’s considered so in Christian theology.

There are many Jewish people that are waking up to reality!

[silenus]

Again, this is GQ not GD. Witnessing belongs elsewhere. This thread is very informative. Please don’t hijack it into a spiel about your religion.