Regarding Muslim fundies

He is by some decision made Imam of a mosque. That does not make him by necessity a scholar in Islamic theology and the fact that he is the local imam does not make him an “official interpreter” for Islam at all.
If you want to search for “official interpreters” of Islam then read those scholars who wrote their tafsier (exegeses) centuries ago and influenced the development of the religious practice and the different law schools (if you want I can give you a little list to get started).
These are the scholars that are to be taken into account and who’s interpretation is to be read and balanced against each other. And if necessary against your own. You do not “have” to agree, yet if you have one working brain cell left, you know without thinking that you do have to take into account the centuries of scholarship of great scholars and that precedes your own study.
Such a study does not include the ideas of some idiot who thinks he has seen the Religious Light and writes a stupid book to spread his word.

To stay short about this imam issue, because there are of course gradations depending the individual and the importance of the mosque or the community he leads, I shall list some general principles:

  1. The role of an Imam largely depends on local situations. This one seems to be leading a local mosque = leads the prayers and can be consulted for advise. That is the role of most people who fall under the category “imam” as you know it.
  2. It is not a necessity do have done religious studies to be an imam but most have of course an education in this (which can be extremely good to very bad).
  3. People who are “known for their knowledge” can because of that be chosen as imam by a local community. I don’t think that is ever the case in Western nations though. Most imams there are send by “the homeland”. There are certainly many very good ones among them, but I would favour the organisation of faculties for Islamic Theology at Western universities, in order to form Imams born and educated there. (This alone would already cut out idiots like this one in the Netherlands)
  4. Besides the “mosque imams” there are also scholars of great and widely spread reputation who are consulted by people who have never met them personally. Among those scholars are also who write columns in newspapers etc…
  5. Nobody has to listen to what any scholar says. The influence of a scholar goes in principle not further then what the individual wants him to give.
    Of course it is obvious that in countries where Islam is the official religion, the influence of the religious establishment and of the law school the country adopted as to be followed is largely affecting the lives of the population and their interpretation of Islam.

In principle this is the case and since there is no clergy. There is no such thing as an equivalent of the Pope (who decides about official doctrine) and no hierarchy as is the case in Christianity.
Of course it is logical that an imam of a little local mosque has little influence on the general Muslim population on this globe in comparison to the scholars of Al Azhar. (I don’t think you shall find an imam of the type we are discussing to win a theological debate there.)
Al Azhar has as a centuries old reputation of authority it holds on to and can rely on, despite the fact that it is in this age not only under pressure of the Saudis but also the Egyptian government. Government’s influence and pressure - both on an institution like Al Azhar and up to the level of local mosques - is of course not something new. In my experience this is not such a concern or something to be very aware of for the vast majority of Muslims yet it shall always remain a point of concern for people like me. However, if you want to stay realistic, you know that this is an almost inevitable practice as result of the nature of mankind and thus political- and power games.
Shia Islam has its own leading figures and has established a sort of hierarchy that is alien to Sunni Islam.

I should say: The principles and teachings of Al Qur’an and Islam in general decide.
In observing and judging what others say or write the gradation of and the worth attributed to the theological education of the individual comes into play.
The person who’s publications are brought up here as “example of Islamic teachings” has for example no chance to win a theological debate with me about his claims. If you are a bit solidly educated (and honest) you can dismantle such “arguments” in a way that makes him run away crying. The only difficulty is to get him to listen…:slight_smile: (I am about sure he is of the type that shall not listen to anyone but himself.)

I don’t know the situation in The Netherlands and how Islam is teached and organized there.
I don’t waste time on reading publications made by every raving lunatic, yet I do think this should be controlled and restricted, just like every normal Christian would like to see the lunatics in their religion to be silenced and reprimanded. Christianity has a lot more tools to do something about that then Islam has since the disappearance of the institution of the kalifate. Which was of course also not the ideal and was already degrading since the very beginning of Islam. Yet it had the advantage that there was a central authority that had a recognized role to play within its sphere of influence.

Salaam.A

He is by some decision made Imam of a mosque. That does not make him by necessity a scholar in Islamic theology and the fact that he is the local imam does not make him an “official interpreter” for Islam at all.
If you want to search for “official interpreters” of Islam then read those scholars who wrote their tafsier (exegeses) centuries ago and influenced the development of the religious practice and the different law schools (if you want I can give you a little list to get started).
These are the scholars that are to be taken into account and who’s interpretation is to be read and balanced against each other. And if necessary against your own. You do not “have” to agree, yet if you have one working brain cell left, you know without thinking that you do have to take into account the centuries of scholarship of great scholars and that precedes your own study.
Such a study does not include the ideas of some idiot who thinks he has seen the Religious Light and writes a stupid book to spread his word.

To stay short about this imam issue, because there are of course gradations depending the individual and the importance of the mosque or the community he leads, I shall list some general principles:

  1. The role of an Imam largely depends on local situations. This one seems to be leading a local mosque = leads the prayers and can be consulted for advise. That is the role of most people who fall under the category “imam” as you know it.
  2. It is not a necessity do have done religious studies to be an imam but most have of course an education in this (which can be extremely good to very bad).
  3. People who are “known for their knowledge” can because of that be chosen as imam by a local community. I don’t think that is ever the case in Western nations though. Most imams there are send by “the homeland”. There are certainly many very good ones among them, but I would favour the organisation of faculties for Islamic Theology at Western universities, in order to form Imams born and educated there. (This alone would already cut out idiots like this one in the Netherlands)
  4. Besides the “mosque imams” there are also scholars of great and widely spread reputation who are consulted by people who have never met them personally. Among those scholars are also who write columns in newspapers etc…
  5. Nobody has to listen to what any scholar says. The influence of a scholar goes in principle not further then what the individual wants him to give.
    Of course it is obvious that in countries where Islam is the official religion, the influence of the religious establishment and of the law school the country adopted as to be followed is largely affecting the lives of the population and their interpretation of Islam.

In principle this is the case and since there is no clergy. There is no such thing as an equivalent of the Pope (who decides about official doctrine) and no hierarchy as is the case in Christianity.
Of course it is logical that an imam of a little local mosque has little influence on the general Muslim population on this globe in comparison to the scholars of Al Azhar. (I don’t think you shall find an imam of the type we are discussing to win a theological debate there.)
Al Azhar has as a centuries old reputation of authority it holds on to and can rely on, despite the fact that it is in this age not only under pressure of the Saudis but also the Egyptian government. Government’s influence and pressure - both on an institution like Al Azhar and up to the level of local mosques - is of course not something new. In my experience this is not such a concern or something to be very aware of for the vast majority of Muslims yet it shall always remain a point of concern for people like me. However, if you want to stay realistic, you know that this is an almost inevitable practice as result of the nature of mankind and thus political- and power games.
Shia Islam has its own leading figures and has established a sort of hierarchy that is alien to Sunni Islam.

I should say: The principles and teachings of Al Qur’an and Islam in general decide.
In observing and judging what others say or write the gradation of and the worth attributed to the theological education of the individual comes into play.
The person who’s publications are brought up here as “example of Islamic teachings” has for example no chance to win a theological debate with me about his claims. If you are a bit solidly educated (and honest) you can dismantle such “arguments” in a way that makes him run away crying. The only difficulty is to get him to listen…:slight_smile: (I am about sure he is of the type that shall not listen to anyone but himself.)

I don’t know the situation in The Netherlands and how Islam is teached and organized there.
I don’t waste time on reading publications made by every raving lunatic, yet I do think this should be controlled and restricted, just like every normal Christian would like to see the lunatics in their religion to be silenced and reprimanded. Christianity has a lot more tools to do something about that then Islam has since the disappearance of the institution of the kalifate. Which was of course also not the ideal. Yet it had the advantage that there was a central authority that had a recognized role to play within its sphere of influence.

Salaam.A

OK, very useful commentary. Thanks.

  1. If you “ignore some parts” like you say, you can hardly be a fundamentalist.
  2. If you do that to put emphasis on other parts = with neglecting the parts that don’t fit your goals, you can hardly be a fundamentalist who takes “everything” as it is written.

What “they” are? “They” are people who are recruted by other people who have a political goal, and who rewrite religious teachings to make it seems as if the religion supports their political goals and their methods to achieve them.

That is not a very smart thing to do if you have no idea “what” exactly they claim to represent. If yçou would, you would not “teke their word for it” since you would be on my line of reasoning :slight_smile:

They follow their own set of rules and their own set of interpretations of a religion that at its basics and in its very clear commands is in straight opposition with their view on it.

It is not “seperatable” in the sense that they use, abuse, rewrite Islam because that is the religon their target recrutes are brought up with or became familiar with and thus the religion they choose to twist in order to lure the target recrutes into their reasoning. (People like that shall never approach people like me. They approach people who are religious, yet no scholared in the religion well enough to be able to make clear distinctions.)

For the rest there is no link with Islam and what they claim is “ligitimate in Islam” about their crimes.
I tell you this, other scholars wordwide tell you this.
You can think and say about it what you want.You are not Muslim (I suppose). Who do you think knows more what he is talking about?

That is something completely different then what I meant in my example and then what terrorists who are named “Islamic fundamentalists” actually do.

Salaam. A

Zagadka, I know where the pit is. I’ve noticed you’re not visiting there.

. Excellent. If you’re thinking fundamentalistic Imams are the same as the KKK, be my guest. I don’t think so. Nor do I think all muslims are the same.

From the same woman MP as the former quotes:

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=8147

In her column in Friday’s edition of Dutch newspaper Algemeen Dagblad, Hirsi Ali said she was accosted in Cafe Dudok in The Hague last week. A student tapped her on the back and said: “Madam, I hope with all my heart that the Mojahedin (Islamic warriors) catch you and kill you”.

The Liberal VVD party politician says she angrily grabbed a knife, offered it to him and told him: “If you want me dead you will have to do it yourself”.

The young man replied he wanted to kill her, but did not dare as he was afraid to go to jail.


http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/topstories/story/0,4386,254390,00.html

Under the leadership of Aqeel Abdulaziz Al-Aqil, fired two months ago by the Saudi government’s clerical authorities, Al-Haramain became a key organisation ‘providing support for the Al-Qaeda network and promoting militant Islamic doctrine worldwide’, according to findings released by the Treasury Department.

Imam El Shershaby is of the Amsterdam mosque, El Tawheed.

Al-Haramain shares a postal address in Amsterdam with the El Tawheed mosque.


Schools who have ties with Islam fundamentalsists: [One of the relevant ones. Sparsly translated because I don’t feel like doing all. Ask Aldebaran to do the rest, though I don’t think he will. :smiley: ]

Amsterdam, As Siddieq
Heeft nauwe banden met de fundamentalistische stichting El Tawheed. Leden van El Tawheed zitten in het schoolbestuur of werken op de school As Siddieq. F. Zaari (bestuurder) en El Monofy (imam) zijn zowel van EL Tawheed als van As Siddieq. Monofy geeft godsdienstles op As Siddieq. Ibr. Bayrak is bestuurslid op As Siddieq als Al Iman. Belangrijkste man is sjeik El Shershaby, hij is voorzitter Tawheed en voorzitter van As Siddieq. Hij was al regelmatig in opspraak wegens de verspreiding van haatdragende teksten in pamfletten en het maandblad van Tawheed. Onderzocht wordt of er ook op de school haatdragende teksten zijn te vinden. De Onderwijsinspectie constateert in haar laatste bezoek aan de school dat kinderen er anti-westerse ideeën op nahouden. Ook is Shershaby bestuurslid en Nederlands vertegenwoordiger van de stichting Al Haramain. Deze organisatie is in Kenia verboden en wordt door de Amerikanen verdacht van het meefinancieren van de aanslagen op de Amerikaanse ambassades in Kenia en Tanzania in 1998. De directeur van Al Haramain is AL Aqeel Aqeel, tevens bestuurder van El Tawheed. Hij betaalt de moskee El Tawheed

Amsterdam As Siddieq school. Has strong ties with fundamental foundation.
F. Zaari (manager) and El Monofy (imam) are both from EL Tawheed as from As Siddieq. Monofy teaches religion on As Siddieq.
Important man is sjeik El Shershaby, he’s chairman of Tawheed and As Siddieg. was a couple of time in the news for distributing hate filled pamphlets in El Tawheed’s monthly.

Education inspections shows that children attending this school have anti-Western thoughts.

Shershaby is also member and Dutch representative of Al Haramein. This foundation is illegal in Kenia and is suspected by the Americans to be behind the financing of the attacks in Kenia and Tanzania in 1998.
Managing director is Al Aqeel Aqeel, also manager of El Tawheed. He pays the mosque El Tawheed.

I can’t but help seeing the difference between a Sunday school - even a fundie one- and a school that is financed by terrorists and teached young children hatred *every day *

[disclaimer - I have no religion at all. I don’t believe. I’m an atheïst]

From Aldebaran’s post:

He teaches CHILDREN. Tell it to the kids, not to listen to their teacher.

It’s the biggest school in Amsterdam. We have a large population of muslims.

I have no intention at all to win a theological debate with anyone. And certainly not one with such an *“honest” * poster.

And I never cry. :smiley:
Some more albeit somevery embarrassing news for the Netherlands:
The Saudi Arabian ambassador to the Netherlands Waleed el Khereiji has claimed he warned the Dutch government 12 months ago that a Muslim charity in Amsterdam had links to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network. But the al-Haramain charity continues to operate legally in the Netherlands.
The mosque has been the centre of controversy recently. MPs called earlier this year for the mosque to be banned when it emerged it sells books supporting female circumcision and husbands beating their wives
One of the mosque’s imams, El Shershaby, is said to be on the al-Haramain board.

He has been accused of preaching anti-western doctrines and on one occasion suggesting non-Muslims will burn in hell
There is no doubt, El Khereiji told Trouw, that al-Haramain has direct links with Bin Laden’s terror network. The Netherlands recognised 2.5 years ago that al-Haramain funds were going to Muslim extremists and used for violence, but the Dutch government did not take any steps against the charity

You mean the one about forced sex not being just for camels anymore? Sure, I’ll explain it — though I’m not sure how much detail we really want to get into here. See, it’s been established that pedophilia is big-time traditional entertainment in Afghanistan. One of the few positive things you can say about the Taliban is that the put the kibosh on this stuff. And, while that’s great for the kids, you figure there are still going to be a lot of horny war lords out there looking for that special object to satisfy their depraved lust. Now, I think we can all agree that pedophiles are the lowest of the low, especially when they force themselves on the Afghan equivalent of the Beaver. So, now that they’re free to go back to kids, I desire to make a wisecrack at their expense. So, I imply that they’ve been boffing camels in the interim. Why, it’s simplicity itself.

And by the way, allow me to extend my sincerest compliments to you for buttressing your arguments by citing yourself as an authoritative source. I must confess that I never would have thought of that one. And, while going over your previous gems, I stumbled upon this intriguing remark:

I see. It’s unfair to generally regard Muslims as fundamentalist but, according to you the Qur’an is seen as “the infallible and inimitable Word of God.” Funny, I’d always though that treating a holy book as the infallible and inimitable Word of God is the very definition of a fundamentalist. Aren’t we talking out of both sides of our mouth, Sweetheart?

I think you’re waving that brush a tad broadly there, braintree. I mean, there are a lot of non-fundamentalist Christians who believe the Bible is “the infallible and inimitable Word of God." Are they talking out of both sides of their mouths as well?

The fundamental (heh) problem here is defining what “fundamentalist” is. I’d suggest that the meaning of “religious fundamentalist” has less to do with the infallability of religious doctrine and more with a desire to make all of society conform with those religious doctrines. This allows us to separate “devout worshipper in a secular society” from the “devout fundamentalist out to remake society in God’s image” – and allows for non-fundamentalist Muslems as well as non-fundamentalist Christians.

Now, if you and Aldebaran want to use a different definition of “fundamentalist” and argue over that, go for it. But make sure it’s a definition you two agree upon first, or else this is just a waste of time.

That statement makes no logical sense at all and relies on a blatant Orwellian destruction of meaning in order to exist. It’s nothing but inane mush. :smack:

If you want to make me think I’m wrong, here’s what you have to do: You have to show me how it’s possible for someone to believe that dinosaurs never existed, that the human race started with Adam and Eve, that the sun circles the earth and not the other way around, that we should stone homosexuals to death, that disease is caused by demons and all the other ridiculous boneheaded nonesense to be found in that awful book and NOT be a fundamentalist.

And, as long as your at it, how about giving us a good, solid working definition of Fundamentalist, eh?

OK Aldebaran, I will take you up on that one. I am an atheist and have read the Koran, your al Quran since I have no problems with what you want to call it as long as we know what we are talking about. First I do understand why should it be so difficult to understand the Quran. Why do you need “exegeses” to understand a book as simple as the Koran. I do not Arabic and so I have read the translation(simultaneous by Pickthal, Yusufali and Shakir) and found them to be meaning very much identical. There are several verses that make its divinity suspect. There are several abrogations of verses and as many contradictions. All in all I wasn’t at all impresses by the book. I am not comparing it with any of the other scriptures of the Abrahamic faiths, because they too are very much in the same category.
I have read all the other threads that you have mentioned, but to be frank, did not find what I thought I would. Since you say you have studied your religion maybe you will be able to provide me with the arguments that could make me change my views. I can assure you that I will not walk away from the discussion.

No I meant: explain in detail what you mean with “sex with camels” and you know very well that is what I meant.
If you say that people have sex with camels and that this is a normal way of having sex for people, I expect you to come with details and proof.
Otherwise I consider such a remark as a very nice example of bigotry and hate speech. Which is against the forum rules.

No compliments needed. If only you do the same studies as I did, you can cite yourself the same way I do on the same issues.

Life is full of surprises, isn’t it?

Wrong.
When you quote out of one of my former posts, it is a polite and normal thing to do to post a link to it. That way people can look at the context. Thus they would discover that what I write is:

  1. Not “according to me” but an explanation about what Muslims in general believe.
  2. I do not add that it is what I believe.

Do you understand that or do you have a problem with this.

No it is not. It is how Muslims in general approach Al Qur’an. They take it as the worldy record of the Message of God as it was reveiled to the Prophet Muhammed.
That is: Muslims take Al Qur’an as they read it today as being the unganched copy of what Muhammed preached, and they see Muhammed as the prophet who received these words from God.
You do not have to be a “fundamentalist” to believe this. You only need to believe that it is like this. Muslims in general believe it is.

  1. Can you rewrite that in simple English. I’m not familiar with English sayings and word games.
  2. Can you keep your language and tone decent.
    Thank you.
    Salaam. A

wisernow,

If you are interested in a discussion about Al Qur’an, I think it would be best to revive one of threads you have read or create one that has your specific quesitons in the OP.

Salaam. A

Ok Alde…here we go…

Are you a pedophile? The remark is aimed directly at pedophiles. You might be acting a tad oversensitive about this one.

Yes, I like discussing things, not insulting each other. You seem to have your own preferences, but to each his own.

I never said they are “the same.” You said, “the KKK doesn’t teach young children in government institutions” and I said, “yes they did, in fact, they controlled entire states” and you said “OMGZ0R LOLZ UR LAME” or something of similar intellectual merit.

Zakalwe,

No, the remark is aimed at spreading the idea that people have sex with camels and that this is for these people a normal thing to do.

I’ve read far too often similar comments with the same clear and direct link made between them and “Arab” or “Muslim” or whomever the writer classifies under this.

Salaam. A

Anybody remember Bloom County?

“Offensesensitvity”

One of my all time favorite Bloom County strips.

Every fundamentalist that I am aware of does this. So doing it does not mean you aren’t a fundamentalist.

(Why have you put that word in quotes? I’m talking about a clearly defined and real group of people.) I am not doubting that Al Qaeda has a political agenda and that they selectively interpret the Qu’ran. They remain fundamentalists by any measure that I am aware of.

I’m sure you know more about Islam than I do, but that’s not the point.

The point is this: apparently you’ve chosen to use a different definition of the word ‘fundamentalist’ than everyone else. You’re changing what the word means so that it won’t fit in a case where it clearly applies. By the definition you use, fundamentalists don’t exist. To borrow from the dictionary online, however, the primary definition of fundamentalism is as follows:

“1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.”

A perfect, unerring, apolitical or non-twisted grasp of the Qu’ran (or different texts for other religions) is not required. Since the dictionary is a guide to common usage of words, I would recommend that we stick to what people normally mean when they say it.

As I explained before, that was a wisecrack directed at Afghan pedophiles. Exactly what is it that you don’t get here? And if making fun of pedophiles is a form of “hate speech,” then I just don’t want to live anymore. If it makes you feel any better, pretend I’m making fun of Catholic priests instead.

(I see Aldebaran has responded to a defender of mine. Look, if you want to misinterpret my clearly-stated explanation so you can go on feeling victimized, be my guest. Go right ahead. I’ve seen this picture before and I was more or less expecting it.)

Um, are you familiar with the concept of circular logic or that of closed self-validating feedback loops? If not, then I’m definitely dealing with a native genius.

Unfortunately, no.

Not at all because you just proved my point. Let us review. You seem to be in a huff because some people are trying to figure out the relationship between Islam in general and fundamentalist Islam in particular. You especially don’t seem to like the idea that most Muslims are fundamentalist. Indeed, you took exception to this notion in post #51, your first post in this thread Look here:

Well, I don’t know about grienspace but I believe it because you just told me. Referring to the idea that the Qu’ran is the “infallible and inimitable word of God,” you said “Not ‘according to me’ but an explanation about what Muslims in general believe.”

Look, this isn’t hard. If you think the Qu’ran is infallible, then you have to believe and do exactly what it says which is the very definition of fundamentalism. If you fudge around because you like to smoke, drink, alley cat around, think for yourself etc. then either you don’t believe that the “Qu’ran is infallible — and are, therefore, not a fundamentalist — or you’re knowingly consigning yourself to hell and who would knowingly do that? You simply and logically cannot have it both ways. By definition, it must be one or the other.

If you don’t know what I’m saying, how do you know I’m playing word games? And I can prove I’m not playing word games because, using your standard of proof, I just told you that I’m not. That proves it.

Ah, yes. The issue of tone. I confess. I’m an inveterate wiseass. This is clearly a fault of mine and I humbly beg your forgiveness. I obviously lack the good grace and tact to treat everyone — including people who are politely looking for information because of their self-admitted ignorance of Islam — with flagrant condescension.

Well, that’s it folks. I’m signing off for the weekend. You’re just going to have to get along without me. I have high hopes the condition isn’t going to prove to be permanent.

Zagadka Please direct me to where I said: “OMGZ0R LOLZ UR LAME” ? I don’t do abbrevations, AFAIK hehehehe :slight_smile:

Is anyone going to comment on my articles? Guess not, huh.

I have another one for you:

Parliamentarians from across political lines called to take harsh actions against offending Muslim clergy, including deporting them and prosecuting them.

Dutch media referred to a French case in which authorities ordered the deportation of a Muslim cleric from Algeria, following an accusation he had **endorsed wife beating and had openly called for polygamy. Non-Muslims were described in the same mosque as “firewood for Hell.” ** [bolding mine]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38230

I’m ever so pleased about those tolerant Imams all over the world. :rolleyes:
Let us take our children to them so they can learn how to throw a homosexual head first from a high building.

Or have all our women circumsized.

Praise Allah.