Well the person who I was replying to that started this whole line of discussion said I misunderstand the Bible because I don’t speak Greek. Which I felt wasn’t precisely a correct statement (actually there are issues of personal and doctrinal faith with my own church that supercede any discussions about linguistics we want to get in to, so the whole thing is “moot” to me) because more correctly he would have said, “You don’t appropriately understand the bible because you do not understand the language it was originally written in.” I felt that just saying “because you don’t speak Greek” was a bit “off” because it sort of blurs the fact that the Greek that you can find in ancient biblical texts is not the same Greek spoken today. Anyways, it was a minor point and is no longer worth discussing.
That’s not how I meant it. You can believe I’m lying now to cover up what you may believe is “me being a dipshit” but, I’m not. I was just trying I’ve read these arguments before. And I’ve seen people on both sides of the fence as far as the original greek goes. And I was just saying that the common belief that “in the original greek” homosexuality is clearly not condemned like many believe it is, is not quite a fully accurate belief.
Well I think it does. I’ll leave the specifics to you and Psycho Pirate. I said earlier if you want to engage in a biblical debate take it to another thread.
Furthermore the actual linguistics is of little matter to me. My church (I’m Catholic) has clearly spelled out that homosexual acts are sin, I personally hold this as the truth, I personally believe that is the way it is in the eyes of God. Any arguments beyond this would just be an attempt to change or refute my personal beliefs and the beliefs of my Church. Arguments along that line would basically be you citing ancient greek and me replying, “That’s interesting, but it is not what I believe nor what my Church believes, you’re not going to change my mind.”
As for the whole “insulting” thing. Just because someone feels insulted doesn’t mean that whoever or whatever made them feel that way were in the wrong, or that that person or thing was “throwing around insults.” Some people react inappropriately to things.
It’s in large part because of this that I keep these particular beliefs of mine to myself. I think my beliefs are the truth, but I understand they upset some people and cause disaste in some people, so I keep them to myself. I’m not ashamed of them, so if the topic comes up I’m more than happy to talk about them. But because of the issues they cause I also don’t offer them up out of the blue, either.
Anyways, I guess I’m a bigot in the eyes of many of the people on this forum. That’s regrettable. Of course, if all the worlds bigots were like me I think most homosexuals would be quite happy with their lives.
What do you mean by “unnatural?” Homosexual behavior has been observed in virtually every mammalian and many avian species. Here’s a couple of gay penguins from the Manhattan zoo. This is just one couple out of several they have there. Nature is chock-full of homosexuality. By what reasonable definition is homosexual intercourse “unnatural?” Look, you want to argue that God, for whatever unfathomable reason, is intimatly concerned about what my boyfriend and I get up to in the bedroom, knock yourself out. I’m not going to take you seriously, of course, because it’s a patently idiotic idea, even if I believed in God to begin with. But you and Martin Hyde both need to stop acting like there’s any science behind your beliefs at all. Psychiatrists do not recognize homosexuality as any sort of a mental disorder, and biologists do not consider homosexuality to be unnatural. Neither of which, of course, have any bearing on the morality of the act, so stop trying to drag respectable science in to prop up your empty little philosophies. You want to argue about the morality of my sex life, build your arguments on their own moral merits. Oh, except that you can’t, because there is no merit to your arguments. You’ve got a bunch of mistranslations and deliberate misreadings about the social moores of two-thousand year old sheepherders that you’re desperatly trying to twist into something that supports your own sad preconceptions. Sorry to defuse your Christian martyr complex, but I don’t hate you, either. I can’t even work up a good contempt for you, like Otto. Mostly you’re just sad. You’re on the losing side of the last great civil rights battle in Western civilization, and your clawing desperation at your long, slow slide into the ash-heap of history is simply pathetic. Say “hi” to Bull Connor and Father Coughlin when you get there; the three of you have plenty in common.
Why is that what you and your church believe? What’s the basis for it, beyond “That’s what God says?” Do you even have a basis for it beyond that? Don’t you think you maybe ought to?
This is perhaps one of the sickest things I’ve ever read.
And this is perhaps one of the stupidest.
The fact that people use a word to mean a thing today doesn’t mean that modern usage has anything to do with original meaning. The fact that people today connect the word “sodomy” to anal sex has absolutely no bearing on whether that usage reflects the actual historical origin of the word. You’re arguing in circles. The “sin of Sodom” is gay sex because people use the word “sodomy” to describe it. But people use the word “sodomy” to describe gay sex because of the story of the “sin of Sodom.”
Saying something is natural or unnatural is just a label put on something in order to hide personal bigotries and ick factors. If we are supposed to do all things that are natural, then females should devour males during mating, as spiders and mantiises do, strong siblings should kill their weaker siblings as eagles do, we should all tear each other to pieces for the best fishing spots as Kodiak bears sometimes do. it’s nonsense.
Besides, even if it IS unnatural (which it ain’t) why should someone not involved even care? It’s nobody’s business.
Most of us already know, as Otto knows, the sin of Sodom had nothing to do with choice of bed partners. Their crime was inhospitality (a euphemism). They were setting strangers up to die from thirst and starvation, through deliberate neglect, so they could loot the corpses. That was their crime.
Go ahead quote the Bible you fuckin’ bigots. But don’t forget that your bitch god would rather have his feet washed with expensive oils than feed the poor.
Even better, read the Book. Especially the parts about motes in your eye, and judge not, and the righteous man and and and and. God doesn’t seem to have a very high opinion of self righteous, self satisfied, “judgers of others”.
“Judge not, lest ye be judged according to thine own standards.”
“They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not by truth that they triumph in the land.” Jeremiah 9:3
“Woe to you…hypocrites! On the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of wickedness” Matthew 23:27:28
Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.”
Luke 12:39–41
Matthew 23
They give out laws to others, but they do not live by them (vs. 3-4)
They love impressive, public religious displays, and being referred to with religious titles (vs. 5-12)
They win converts to their own religion, but not to God (vs. 13-15)
They re-interpret their own laws in order to suit their own purpose (vs. 16-22)
They emphasize minuscule religious details, yet ignore the most important truths (vs. 23-24)
They keep the outward appearance clean, while leaving the inside corrupt
(vs.25-28)
They deny their own sinfulness (vs. 29-36)
And finally as to Sodom, I go here … Read it and heed it.
Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16:49)
Yeah it’s even more insulting. You judge and then fudge on the fact that you are judging.
Yeah it’s insulting. We’re just a bunch of diseased perverts then. It’s all settled.
So are you saying gays are also pedophiles? Interesting theory, but wrong. Oh I almost forgot. It’s insulting too.
Did too.
You’re Catholic? So are some of us too (me included). I don’t remember God or Jesus slamming gays or sex as specifically or especially being evil or anything else. If you want to rely on Paul, he was against all sex. Even marriage was to him just a stopgap, a half measure, to just barely keep you from going to hell. He was also perhaps one of the least tolerant people of his time. He went from being a bounty hunter for the Romans, to a fire and brimstone preacher. He merely redirected his own unhappiness and general dislike of people in general (my own broad and general, unsupported opinion).
All your claims and arguments can be countered by others far more educated than myself. We have some pretty hardcore biblical scholars around here who could give you the original Hebrew and/or Greek quotes and the correct translations, complete with contexts and cross references. Also, as a gay and a Catholic (yes, that means Christian too), I think you’re wrong in a lot of things.
That is just a chickenshit way of saying we are fucked up and even worse than just being queer. And it’s not a choice, not by a long shot.
OK, blacks are good at jumping around and hollering and “entertaining their masters”, like rejects from an old Tarzan movie. Whites are good at running things (sounds like whites should give the orders and call the shots - the master race is back I suppose). Hispanics are good at breeding/multiplying and living in grossly overcrowded conditions (poverty and crowding is a good thing). He’s managed to insult damn near eveyone. Worst of all, he doesn’t even have the fucking BALLS to stand by his own words, as spoken. He’s a pussy girly man.
Wrong. Hitler killed gays too, not just Jews and gypsies and French. Aw forget it. He probably wanted to kill everyone and given time, he would have. Before that during the Dark and Middla Ages there occasionally “burning times” when gays were burned along with accused witches and heretics.
If we have a problem it’s ignorant bigoted bastards who refuse to mind their own business. I’m talking to you Reggie.
“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.” Exodus 20:7
Deuteronomy, 18:19, 20. “And it will be the man who does not listen to My words, but who speaks in My name, I will inquire from him. However, a prophet who sinfully speaks a matter in My name which I did not command to speak and he speaks in the name of other God’s, you must kill that prophet.”
Careful Reggie, you’re just begging for a big honking lightning strike.
There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. - Goethe
If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all. - Noam Chomsky
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. "
Abraham Lincoln
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure. - Mark Twain
Man was not made for the law, but the law for man - Jesus
Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. "
The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, ‘You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.’ (Luke 16:14,15)
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, . . . And many will follow their destructive ways, . . . (2 Peter 2:1-2).
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, . . . (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
Some of the above are especially interesting in that Reverend Reggie seems to have a skill at collecting money and then making it disappear, all the while invoking God’s name.
If we queers are going to hell, I bet Reggie will be there too.
Can you tell this rat bastard mother fucking horse raper pissed me off?
I have never understood why some “Christians” will pick out the very few bits of the Bible they claim proves homosexuality is a sin and get all self-righteous about it, while ignoring the rest of the Bible. If you’re going to preach it, baby, preach ALL of it, and walk the walk. Don’t just talk it.
Guess you can tell I’m not Christian, although I was raised one.
About 3 seconds after I hit submit, I realized the omission. And I knew you’d jump on it. Luckily, I just don’t care to try to make you understand I don’t hate you. I have better things to do than make nice with you. Like it or not, I wish the best for you. Now kindly leave me the fuck alone.
