Reincarnation

Reincarnation is such an interesting question. But it’s one you need to address with your skepticism set on “Full Power” – and most of the people who “believe in reincarnation” have a remaindered battery-operated skepticism with dead batteries.

Yes, there is abundant evidence of past-life regressions. Much of it is explainable by leading questions, placing favorable interpretations on ambiguous statements, and other things closely resembling how to work a “cold reading.”

Consider the following:

  1. For reincarnation to be possible requires the survival of personal self awareness past the moment of death. As you may have noticed, that’s hotly contested, and the evidence for it is equally subject to refutation by skeptical analysis.

  2. While two of the major world religions and most schools of neo-paganism do consider reincarnation to be the fate of humans – and Buddhism, interestingly, offers to tell you “how to get off the wheel” – most major world religions, including the majority one in America and the two next in line, hold it to be contrary to their beliefs on the fate of humans after death.

  3. The metaphysic of materialism finds no evidence that would support reincarnation. (“Materialism” here is not a pejorative but the proper term for the philosophy of those who hold that anything that exists can be measured and identified by the means of science.)

  4. The human mind is demonstrably capable of generating complex and self-consistent fantasies. Anyone who has ever remembered any of his dreams has personal experience of this. You may find instructive the critical analysis of my and others’ experiences of encounters with God that are reported in several now-defunct threads several layers down in teh menus for this forum.

  5. The alternate name for psychedelic drugs is hallucinogenic drugs, for the very good reason that they do induce intense and complex hallucinations. While these can be fun, caution is advised before taking them seriously. I do not reject the idea that acid can give a person insight into a higher reality – but I consider it much more likely that it is giving him insight into his own psyche and what he wishes and fears.

I do not completely reject reincarnation – I am aware of several phenomena for which it is quite honestly the simplest, fewest-assumption explanation. But before I subscribe to it as anything more than an untested hypothesis among many, most of which have substantially better evidence supporting them, I’ll want to see much, much better evidence than I have at present.

I think you are summing up your arguments, such as they are (and quite frankly they are nonsensical) right here.

Whilst you do not seem to see it, perhaps you ought to try thinking about this. Your understanding of both physics and human biochemistry seems to have been gained from something you once saw on the back of a box of cereal.

I do not mean to be rude here, but seriously, you make the same sort of sense (none) that any mystical drug-addled seer makes.

As has been previously pointed out, the words in your sentences are okay as individuall words, but the sentences themselves are about as meaningful as if you had taken random words from a dictionary and strung them together.

I cannot even give you a grade for effort here.

Unproven. Way unproven. Way unknown either way.

There’s a big difference between arguing/discussing mundane topics, about which there is little doubt, and doing the same in regard to cutting edge science or things well beyond our understanding. I see a lot of mocking here of Question, which I think is unappropriate.

Maybe it’s time to trade that clunker in for a more advanced appliance.

“Much,” maybe. And then there’s hard evidence, such as children being able to speak languages they could not possibly have known, etc. My cite is the previously posted www.victorzammit.com link. You may not like his site; it’s not perfect. But he still summarizes evidence for reincarnation in an efficient manner.

This has pretty much been proved by NDEs. Yes, I understand that the skeptics here don’t take that evidence seriously.

Sure, the big monotheist trio—JCI—don’t go for it. It should be noted, however, that Judaism never had much to say about the afterlife (the Pharisees, interestingly, strongly supported a belief in the afterlife) until Christianity started having fun with its own speculations, which were a vulgarized amalgam of beliefs from Judaism and Roman/Greek paganism. Islam then created its own grab bag of nonsense.
Indian spirituality was always a little more investigative and scientific, however, and its beliefs gibe pretty well with what we know about the afterlife today (from NDEs and other sources): that you do go to a heaven-like place (if you deserve it, and most do), but you can choose to be reincarnated to advance spiritually and learn more lessons (and many do so).

Your definition of “materialism” is pure hogwash. www.m-w.com says it is, “A theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter.” Get it straight.

And a theory does not “find evidence” or fail to “find evidence.” The theory holds that spirit itself does not exist. Get it straight.

Point 4—snip. No point made.

Reasonable.

Great, then we agree that it’s part of reality.

Yeah, without this addendum, your skeptic buddies would come down really hard on you. Thanks for remaining a team player!

Logically speaking, a B-52 bomber is made of matter, and since all matter exists in a quantum state when you zoom in far enough, a B-52 bomber is composed of quantum matter. So, by pure logic, I’m going to conclude that it’s likely that you were in fact one in a past life.

Furthermore, a B-52 bomber, when operational, appears to operate without thinking. I see that operating without thinking is the definition of englightenment, so in your past life, you were an enlightened B-52 bomber.

That’s way more impressive than having been Egyptian royalty, if you ask me!

To go serious: why?

Consider dreamless sleep, or simple unconsciousness. Outside of the dream state, there is no personal self awareness. Yet, when waking again, personal self awareness returns. (And often not all at once, particularly if you’re particularly deeply and non-dreamingly asleep and the natural course of it is interrupted by an alarm.)

The metaphorical parallel seems straightforward enough. A living brain ceases to support self-awareness–it undergoes an irreversible change of state into death. Then a new brain undergoes a change of state–scads of cell birth, a truly remarkable amount of apoptosis and other cell death, all the remarkable organic processes that turn a single cell into the squishy miracle that is a human being–and supports self-awareness again.

It’s an interesting question what can be said to be the, or any, continuity between those events, of course, and it tends sharply towards angel-pin-dancer-counting, so it’s largely academic.

I’ll have to direct point 2 directly at point 4, but the rest are fine points all.

Here’s my take on the Randi material about Victor Zammit. Randi’s words in bold. There are lots of quotes within the section (he’s responding to someone else’s letter, which I do not quote below), making it hard to respond precisely, but I’ll try to be fair. The link was previously posted in this thread.

Victor Zammit, B.A.(Psych), Grad. Dip. Ed.(UTS), M.A.(Legal Hist.), LL.B(UNSW), Ph.D, lawyer, Euro-Australian, a retired Solicitor of the Supreme Court of the New South Wales and the High Court of Australia.
Okay. So he has laurels.

Too bad we can’t dismiss him out of hand. I’ve snipped the pejorative-plentiful lead paragraph that uses words such as “frothing.”

We are not in the business of proving a negative. Tell Zammit to prove the existence of life after death. We don’t claim there is none; if he claims there is, let him prove it.

Fair as far as it goes. But VZ’s point is that the evidence is so strong at this point that it deserves to be taken seriously. Instead, the skeptics dismiss it, no matter what. VZ is also trying to call attention to Randi’s impossible challenge with one of his own.

It took a long time for me to decide to forswear further discussions with those who show no signs of being able to support an argument on logical, rational, grounds.

Yeah, I understand the feeling!

Now, I simply tell them that I’ve no time to spend feeding their egos in fruitless back-and-forth exchanges.

Because even discussing these matters with the Amazing Randi is true food for the ego!

As I’ve said, Zammit’s offer is perfectly safe, for him.

And Randi’s, for him. Same deal.

He lists a huge amount of anecdotal evidence, quotes long-dead scientists such as Crookes and Lodge — who as soon as they left their field of expertise, also left behind their ability to reason dispassionately — and he demands that we impugn and refute all such material as if it were real evidence.

Bullshit. The quotes by Crookes et al. are on the top page; the evidence to be rebutted are in the chapters of the on-line book.

Now, lawyers are accustomed to be allowed to drag in all sorts of “evidence” to support an argument. Often it’s the quantity of material, rather than the quality, that they depend upon. Also, lawyers are name-droppers by nature; a title or a position, fame or fortune, can color the validity of their “experts.” Juries are frequently awed by such material. That’s one reason lawyers prefer that scientists — and magicians, I can testify! — are excluded from their juries. I trust that my readers are, from a lawyer’s viewpoint, unwelcome jurors.

Innuendo, nothing more. I like how he flatters his readers with the last sentence.

I think that Zammit’s hysterical reaction is evidence of his frenzy, of his desperate need for evidence he seeks but does not find.

Sadly, Randi is partially right here. I have told VZ myself that some of what he puts on his top page—Susan Blackmore is going to hell, etc.—is not productive. I share VZ’s frustration with self-labeled skeptics, however, who believe themselves to be knights of science while trashing logic and dismissing exceptionally good evidence.

Imagine being faced with an opponent who claims, “I’m 200 years old, and I perform chants every day that perfectly effect a system whereby my aging process is negated. Prove that my claim is false.” No amount of reasoning, of producing records, of testing, of introducing experts, will prove his claim to be false. Exactly the same circumstance applies to Zammit.

Huh? The claim of being 200 years old sounds pretty concrete to me. Either there’s proof of it or not. And time will tell whether this dude actually ages or not. Shit-poor example here.

Challenged to produce evidence that his claim is true, Zammit tries to reverse the responsibility in the argument. It’s his only recourse.
Hogshit. VZ has assembled mountains of evidence in his on-line book. Has Randi even read it? The $1M prize is a joke, but that’s little more than a spoof of Randi’s, anyway.

And, if I won’t fall for that ploy (remember, he claims to be a lawyer!) he persists in blustering and obfuscating. But I urge you to go to Zammit’s web page — listed above — to see the full extent of his incredible philosophy and attachment to the ridiculous.

Yes, I also recommend the same, but for different reasons.

For one example, he uses numerology to establish what he believes to be a plausible connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein! Just read this single statement, which begins his numerology essay, and you’ll have an excellent insight into his logic: [snip quote]

Fine, a decent dig. Not really related to VZ’s core competency, however.

More blather appears on his web page about the “Akashic Records,” the “Seven Laws of Psychic Energy,” and an hilarious piece about Nostradamus in which he locates New York City “between forty and forty-five degrees.” Pray tell, East, West, North, or South? And for his information, the heart of NYC is at 73 57’ West, 40 45’ North.

Same thing, although more of an insinuation of a dig than an actual dig.

Then Zammit asks, in an essay, “Who are Silver Birch and White Eagle?” and answers us. [snip quote] So, if you still have any doubt about Zammit’s naivety, please refer on his web page to what these two Indian “guides” have to tell us. I think we can conclude that the man is a total mystic, unrealistic, and uninformed. And he’s a practicing lawyer…?

Typical Randi unpleasantness. The man is just plain nasty. But that doesn’t make him wrong, no. What makes him wrong is his cheap-dig rhetoric (innuendo, etc.) and extensive use of sophistry.
Victor is not perfect, but his on-line book is an exceptional summary of evidence for the afterlife.

You have not provided a ‘cite’; You have provided ‘an advertistment for a book’. Anecodotal stories and vague polls (so fucking what if 97% of N.Americans believe in an afterlife? If 100% believed in invisible pink unicorns, would they then exist?) do not constitute proof in any meaningfull sense of the word.

Obviously, modern science does not completely understand all aspects of how the brain works. That does not mean that a reasonable person should fill in the blanks with ghost stories and other crap.

Is it crap if there’s evidence for it? What about all the cases Dr. Stevenson has investigated? Anecdotal or not, it is evidence, and personally I think there’s enough of it to be taken seriously.

a demonic entity is the source of negative emotions. psychedelics open the mind. parasites leave their hosts during anesthesia… eating shrooms or acid or dxm tricks the demon into thinking that you are not a viable mind…
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doubt is negative.

It’s not anecdotal evidence if someone can be stuck in a chair and investigated to see if he or she really knows a language that he or she could not possibly know. These cases exist, and the evidence is not “anecdotal.”

To quote Dictionary.com:

Show me the actual studies. Show me what controls were used. Show me the actual exhaustive background research performed on each of these subjects. Until then, you have nothing but anecdotal stories, and not particularily convincing stories at that.

My favorite example of of so-called ‘xenoglossy’ from the the book advertistment you provided:

Give me a fucking break. An ancient forbidden Chinese religion? What was it called, ‘democracy’? Ha!

The Demon-Haunted World should be required reading before a thread about the existance of smurfs and ghosts is started.

Wait, I found an alternative definition:

Anecdotal: A pejorative adjective applied to any evidence that kicks the shit out of the skeptics’ worldview.

But seriously, I can accept the definition you posted. Again, if experts have examined a person exhibiting xenoglossy and have made records and checked facts and whatnot, that’s not anecdotal evidence.

I can’t show you shit, pard. Except for what’s on the Web, 'cause I don’t do that kind of research. But perhaps we can agree on this: if such studies exist–and there are those who say they do–then your worldview is shot to hell. Right? Yeah, I thought so.

Not a book advertisement, as the entire book is available on-line. Huh.

[snip quote]

Yer real funny. VZ provides a cite for this claim:

Fisher, Joe (1986) The Case for Reincarnation Grafton Books London

Both the page on xenoglossy and the one on reincarnation itself are quite long and full of cases, all with citations. Hmm.

Again, you’re a barrel of laughs. BTW, this link desribes your technique of ridicule:

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/secrets/media_skeptic.htm

Quoting therefrom:

“Avoid any actual discussion of the evidence for psi if you possibly can, but if you can’t avoid it, concentrate on the weakest or the craziest you can find, such as the latest alien abduction, crop circle, Californian channeller, pop astrologer or Bigfoot sighting.”

Smurfs, uh huh.

the nervous activity… i see it in people all the time… can’t sit still …
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me… i bounce my knee … why? i have always figured it is just too much adrenaline … actually, it’s just my subconscious telling my body to move so that the wavefunction can collapse… “measurement”, “observation” … that is what collapses the wavefunction. my mind knows that my leg moved…

You shouldn’t be concerned with my ‘worldview’. You should be concerned with finding some actual evidence to support your claims.

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Sure thing, chief. You show me the reports from the experts, rather than some bibliography pointing towards yet more goofball writings (and make no mistake, Zammit is a goofball at best), and I’ll accept what you present as factual evidence. until then, you are just telling campfire stories.

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I can provide you with scientific information for real-world topics ranging from physics to medicine. You can’t provide any actual scientific information for your claims. Wonder why?

Quite frankly, this is a waste of time. You don’t seem to comprehend what is required of you, if you wish to prove to a skeptic the existance of various ‘paranormal’ phenomena. All you have done to this point is link to some bullshit websites that contain nothing but stories and doctored photos. Go read The Demon-Haunted World, have a gander at The Skeptics Dictionary, and come back when you are prepared to present some evidence (that would withstand scientific scrutiny) to support your claims.

Are you sure that you’re not still tripping? I mean, misusing the term “wavefunction” is bad enough, but now you’re throwing demonic entities into the mix? I think you need to lay off the psychedelics for a while.

I don’t think you even understand what a wavefunction is.

I think that Trinopus put it best:

That is what your use of “wavefunction” is like. You’re using the word in a way that has nothing at all to do with its actual meaning. Here’s a free hint: “Wavefunction” is not some buzzword that can be inserted into any sentence to make it sound more scientific. It has a specific meaning; one which you do not appear to grasp.

Now go crack a book or something and study up on what a wavefunction actually is. I’d recommend not posting the word “wavefunction” at all until you have an actual understanding of what that word means.

The Skeptics Dic? Been there, read that. It’s a steaming pile of shit. Brutus, you ain’t got shit for a rebuttal. I’m sorry that you’re so lame, but that’s life, eh mon?

Hrmm…No valid cite pertaining to your claims. No reliable data, just more bluster. I’ll keep checking, but your track record isn’t too hot.

you know it is true because i know it is true. we are one mind.

let’s try an experiment. pay close attention to the number seven - 7 … think about it…

james randi or whoever the fuck you are… i want my $1,000,000