Because it clearly contradicts the Bible, and people who want to believe that the Bible is literally and completely true can’t tolerate that because it directly contradicts their belief.
And an even larger number if you want any kind of genetic diversity afterwards. Cheetahs for example went through such a population bottleneck, and while they’ve survived they are near-clones of each other.
That’s right. Actually a very interesting study, so I’ll try to find a link for further reading. But if the there are not enough genes for genetic diversity, fatal flaws can be passed along, diminish the numbers and its curtains for that particular animal. I believe the Bengal Tiger is nearing this magic number (at least at the time of the study I’m referring to).
FYI: 99% of people believe that Noah supposedly brought exactly one male and one female from each species (according to my completely non-scientific, non-study). According to many readings of the Bible, not so. There were seven* animals who were “clean” (Kosher to eat or sacrifice), seven pairs of all flying birds, presumably the flying ones thus we have inbred kiwis, and one pair of other animals (Genesis 7:2-3).
But: I’m not sure, if we assume 7 pairs, that this is enough to sustain a population. I guess modern wisent are descended from 12 individuals, not sure of the sex ratio?
*It is unclear to me whether it means 7 males and 7 females; 3 of one and 4 of the other; 1 male and 6 females; etc.
Stink Pot Fish, if you wish to understand what fundamentalist, young earth creationists think about dinosaurs, a good place to start would be Answers in Genesis, which includes an extensive page of links to articles on dinosaurs. There are similar pages on evolution, geology and any other subject you might care to mention. When you read these, don’t think too much about whether they’re valid. Of course they aren’t. (I’m an atheist.) Instead, consider how folks who want to believe in literal, Biblical inerrancy find them persuasive. That’s the answer, I think, to the key question implicit in the OP. And don’t kid yourself into thinking you can knock this down with a few pithy posts on the SDMB. Greater minds than yours (or mine) have tried, from better platforms. Fundamentalism is a tough nut to crack.
Starting off, imho “god” was created in MAN’s imagination, to both explain the unexplainable, and to provide an essentially unbeatable method of controlling the masses.
As for the final question - my answer is yes, dinosaur existence is ignored because it would refute biblical beliefs.
As a kid I always just took the word “day” in the creation story to mean “step.” As in God created light on step one, the heavens and Earth on step two, etc. Each could have been 1 picosecond or 82 million years. Dinosaurs happened on day/step six some time before man. They came and went before we showed up. The fact that they aren’t mentioned doesn’t meant a thing; squirrels aren’t mentioned in the bible either.
Too bad the word “step” wasn’t invented yet. “Hiram, would you mind going downdays into the basement and bring up a jar of olive oil?”
How so?? All these posts and you don’t even explain your statement? You say clearly…how so??? Where are your arguments? What are the foundations of your certain conviction?
Do you have anything solid except a bold statement?
2: Where is the source of irrefutable proof that shows how many of a genus or family you need to maintain genus or family???
**LINKS **please!! I want scientific sources i can take to my academic friends or the university down the road. Let’s make it serious if you are so convinced you can scientifically prove the Ark does not fit.
I can wait a month for you to find where you put your sources. I’ll wait.
PS This is the lamest topic i saw so far. 10 year old level.
Why should we have to explain their problems? There is plenty of evidence that some believers are very nervous about dinosaurs. Everything from Creationland to the nonsense spouted by Ken Ham indicates that some number of believers really do have a problem with dinosaurs. The article from Ham to which I linked shows him twisting his “logic” into a pretzel to claim that dinosaurs lived within the last 6,000 years while basing his “arguments” on the assertion that the bible is literally true in its first nine chapters.
That’s great. Maybe you should go have a talk with Ken Ham and try to get him to display as much equanimity as you have.
Go back and read the link to Ken Ham’s nonsense or look up anything by Keith Hovind. Their arguments are all based on claiming that science (or, at least, evolution), directly contradicts the bible. There is really no need to provide more evidence of that statement than the numerous links that have already been provided in this thread.
Well, most of us agree, but then we are surprised that you feel that way about the people you are defending in regard to dinosaurs.
ruben4ruben, I don’t know what you are getting into a twist about. After all, no one screamed at you to provide links to scientific sources when you trotted out that link in your post above (which I cut and pasted in here for ease of locating.). I actually read that link. There is nothing scientific about any of the claims made in that piece you’ve linked to, and you use it to tell us that the “ark fits”.
I guess everthing can fit it you have such documentation as that at your disposal.
I suspect that Scientology also can explain everything. I’m not criticizing your or anyone else’s religion. I just think it is presumptuous to get so indignant when you yourself have not exactly wow’ed us with scientific proof.
I personally don’t even believe that the animals could fit on the ark, and that article makes it sound like there was plenty off room.
Also, let’s day you were able to get the animals on the ark. Let’s just say. We’ve all heard the 40 days and 40 nights rain storm story, and your link tells us that the ark had to have room to store food for all of the animals for a year. A YEAR! how was that done, when some of the animals on the ark were actually the food of the other animals? No refrigeration or preservation of any kind was possible, not to mention what the ark would smell like after the first day… No one addresses the waste removal system Noah Built on the ark. And as the lions began eating all of the smaller, slower cats, dogs, birds, and anything else it could find before eating Noah’s family. But you believe that everything can be reduced down to a very small number of animals that evolved into all other species on the planet. You also are including that Noah and his family, responsible for the care and maintenance of the ark and its contents, wer also responsible for repopulating the entire earth, which they did…
I think someone above put this perfectly when they provide one simple answer “God did that.” Since he can do everything, why do the flood at all? Why not just start from scratch, and obliterating everying on the planet. Easy enough… He’s god.
I didnt want this to become an argument between believers or belief systems. So if you can’t get your proof here, please try somewhere else.
A lion or tiger or bear will eat twenty to fifty times their own body weight in a year.
Also, what did Noah feed the hummingbirds? There was no sugar.
And how did he collect them, and all the other New World species?
It’s always amusing how believers demand irrefutable proof!! of anything that even slightly contradicts their beliefs, but are hugely offended when a skeptic demands even the slightest bit of evidence from them in return.
Der Trihs, I found it interesting that the Gallup Poll, which I usually find to be touch with reality, determined who was religious or not by how often they attended church (or perhaps another “religious” gathering place. Thanks for the link though. 46% is really surprising.
There are many, many devout people who do not attend church.
Irrefutable proof of what? I just don’t hear believers demanding scientific proof or even evidence when the subject is science versus religions.
As for my own beliefs, I am not offended when a skeptic “demands” even the slightest bit of evidence. I’m just aware that, in truth, I cannot give them my evidence. I cannot show you my experiences and have you experience them. Also, I do incorporate science into much of my thinking. I have no problem with Evolution or dinosaurs coming before human beings or dismissing the literalness of the Bible.
From my fourth grade science book in the section on dinosaurs:
“…No man ever saw one of these creatures.” – The How and Why Club, The L.W. Singer Company, 1939.
The story being told goes on to explain about tracks, bones, and scientific investigation of dinosaurs. Nothing at my Presbyterian Church contradicted any of this. They were too busy talking about charity, the Golden Rule, the Good Samaritan, etc. (I have some of those books too. I never throw away anything.)
Please stop making your ridiculous generalizations. I’m sorry that you were brought up in a church that seems so ignorant. Not all churches are like that. I don’t blame you for turning away. But stop making assumptions and stating them as factual information about other churches and religions.
Some people believe only human beings have souls. I just wave them off because I believe they do.
Rather than digging through the craziness of science versus religion to find your answers, why not just ask yourself what you do believe. Become an informed person, yes. But look within for your answers.
This is exactly what I’ve done. Science, religion, whatever… I believe in what works for me. I am fortunate in that I’m not bound by a formal religious upbringing, because I don’t have to have an inner fight with myself over something I learned when I was 7 about God. My God makes much more sense to me, and I will not be punished for not believing in one religion or the other because God gave me my brain. And if God created my brain, why would he punish me for doing exactly what it was meant to do? Ask questions and figure out for myself the answer based on the information I have been provided.
I don’t have trouble with any religion (that I know of ) on the planet, unless it deliberately permits and encourages the harming of others. But I do have trouble with folks that believe they are right, close their mind to discussion, and resort to name calling and other behaviors that don’t really solve anything. Because the only truth is, no one knows the truth. But assuming there is an afterlife of some kind, we will all find out in due time.
I realize that the odds are strong that when we die, we become worm food. However, I hope there is a heaven and a hell, because I know a few people who should do nothing but suffer in the afterlife for the grief they’ve caused others here on earth. Turning into worm food would be a great disappointment, but well be dead, so we won’t be able to feel disappointed.
Now it’s finally become clear what this debate is actually about. Sorry i did not catch on sooner.
For the record, i have nothing to do with Mr. Ham or Mr. Hovind or their statements. I never mentioned their names and i certainly do not defend them. So there’s no need to mention them or ask me why i defend them.
I’ll just skip this debate because this is not really to do with me i feel. There’s a lot of assumption and generalization on both sides here. I’ll look at your links though. Thanks.
One last thing:
Does that mean they just sat in their own waste then? How many times have you read travel logs or disaster journals written by folk that found it necessary to record how they cleaned their potties for posterity and the betterment of the human race?
Obviously they disposed the dung. Is it too technologically advanced to do as farmers have done for millennia with dung??? Is this question even for real??!!?? Is this the level we’re on?
If one doesn’t believe the core of the record they’ll find a problem at every step. Example: Genesis says Noah did not have to fetch the animals but that they came to the Ark by themselves.
If you don’t believe in God and don’t believe he has the power to get animals to do that without fighting each other…then why bother dismantling the rest of the story?
It’s obviously totally impossible at all steps and from all angles for one who doesn’t believe in an Almighty Creator. Without that factor the story is of course impossible. I now realize my error in stepping in to this debate.
I respect your views. Sorry for wasting your time.
Based on the tone of your “rant”, I think I can state with 100% certainty that you don’t respect anyone’s views but your own.
I’m not sure how this thread went into the ark, but it did. I threw the waste removal comment in as a joke, as the whole premise of the ark is preposterous (to me). But if you believe that story, well, ok… Stranger things are believed by people.
I could go step by step through the ark story and there are things that simply don’t work. But what’s the point in that? If you believe it, nothing I say would convince you otherwise, and I’m ok with that. I’m not here to convert you or anyone else.
It would seem, however, that you have a need to prove that you are right on this story. Well, not to me. I asked about dinosaurs, not the ark.
I’m sorry, I did want to address this one comment of yours. First, I never said I didn’t believe in God. I will say, however, that I don’t believe in the bible, either the OT or NT. If L. Ron Hubbard make a religion out of whole cloth, and get what most people would consider (on the surface) rational people to believe it, then anything is possible. And one thing that seems possible to me is that people had a need to understand the how’s and whys of life, and some stories were created to help explain some of the mysteries of life that will never be answered. “God” is the simple answer to anything that can’t be explained. What a great idea, don’t you think? And if you don’t believe in these stories, or God, then you can’t go to Heaven, where only people who believe exactly what you believe will be. Really?
Here’s a mind-bender for you. If God does exist, then I concede that he could make all of the animals find their way to Noah’s ark. And any parts of the story that make no sense can be attribute to God. So here’s my question. Why did god bother to go through all the trouble? He’s God, right? Why bother drowning every living thing on the planet when he could just have easily, with a flick of a god-finger, erase the entire planet of life and start over? Why the rain storm and flood show?
I guess God only knows.