Religion in Song of Fire and Ice

Cafe Society
1

I’m in the middle of the second book, Clash of Kings. I tried to wait until after the HBO show aired but I could not control myself, which means I’d very much would like to NOT be spoiled but I can see how this discussion could lead to just that, so. . .

This is what I’ve gathered so far:

Old Gods: Very pagan-like. Sort of what the people of the British Isle before Christianity.

New Gods: Christianity but with a Septinity instead of a Trinity.

Red Religion: Real magic from foreign (to Westros) lands.

Drowned God: Poseidon for an island nation.

Would you call the Maesters a religion? Or are they scientists?
As you can see, I haven’t gathered much. How would the people who are further into the books describe these religions? Also a separate question, how much time has passed from the first book until the last one published, Dance with Dragons?

2

Many people think of the Drowned God as Cthulu. "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

3

You’re pretty much spot on, but no, the Maesters aren’t a religion. They seem to worship the Seven, or at least, I’ve never seen one that worshiped any other god(s). But yeah, they’re scientists…and doctors, historians, herbalists, etc…

4

Too late to edit, wanted to add:

The red religion is also sort of like Christianity…they worship one God, but not a Trinity/Septinity or anything, but they acknowledge another god, of sorts, but don’t say his name, he’s evil, etc… (Satan figure.) And there is other magic besides the one granted by R’hllor (for instance, Dany not burning in the flames and the dragons being hatched.)

5

You know, I thought of Dany as part of the Red/Fire/Magic religion but she doesn’t speak of religion, she just knows things. Then another character, I don’t remember which, said that the Targaryens followed no religion. I should know better than to take what a character says as the truth. The more a character thinks he knows what’s going on, the more mistaken s/he turns out to be. Same for the reader. It’s one of the best things about this series.

6

There’s also the religion of the warlocks from Qarth, the whole house of the undying thing they had going also had some power. Uh, that was the second book right?

7

Honestly, I don’t see much point in trying to match up religions to an equivilant in real life. It doesn’t help to make any more sense out of the story. Really.

Just accept them as what they are, and the believers of those religions as what they are, and don’t try to pigeonhole them into what you expect.

The series is not an allegory.

8

I’m not trying to equate them with real life religions, I’m trying to understand them using the what I know. If anyone can describe them not using real life religions, I wish they would.

9

Does Luwin worship the Seven? I highly doubt Qyburn did.

If Sam does eventually forge a chain, then he’ll be one (confirmed) that doesn’t worship the Seven.

10

The Seven are fairly similar to Christianity. They’ve got a doctrine and a fairly similar structure, and even wandering priests who go from village to village, performing marriages and preaching. There was some talk in some of the non-book material that, as they acknowledged half the faces of God were female that they their Septas had more power than RL nuns did, but if so, that hasn’t shown up much.

The Old Gods are seem vaugly animist. They have no doctrine, just a few taboos. No kinslaying, no oathbreaking, no violation of guest-right, past that, you’re pretty much on your own.

The Drowned God = Cthulhu is funny, but really, aside from appreciating the occasional human sacrifice, he doesn’t seem any worse than most of the other gods. He’d fit right in with the [del]Dorathki[/del] [del]Doraathkai[/del] [del]Dorathhakki[/del] Horselords. Who seem to have a very vague polytheism (with the Great Stallion on top) mixed with some ancestor worship. They get a kick out of beating up other gods and taking their stuff.

The Tygarians were atheists, or so the stories go. Dany doesn’t seem particularly religious, though has a bit of curiosity about the Seven.

The Red God is a bit like Zoroastrianism, or a dualist christianity where Satan is God’s equal. They have POWERS! Which is impressive, and sets them apart . . .

But the thing is, a lot of other groups have powers, too, and not all are religious. The Wargs of the North, for instance, and some sorcerers in the east. The Tygarians and other Valarians, of course. Miri ‘worshiped’ the Lamb God, but she learned magic from a Shadowbinder. (I’m not sure what a shadowbinder is, but it doesn’t sound like the fun kind of ‘binder’)

Southron Westeros has the Alchemists/Pyromancers, who used to have more powers than they do now. They were still better at ‘fire magic’ than Thoros when the books started. The Old Gods used to have their own set of priests and sorcerers. The Maesters actually offer ‘magic’ as a major. Which doesn’t work anymore, but used to.

So the Red Priests powers, impressive as they are, are not really proof of anything.

The Maesters are a political and educational organization. They’re not inherently a religious order, but they’re tied strongly to the Seven worshiping parts of Westeros. They don’t seem to encourage devotion.

And there are a LOT of others. Most every group seems to have at least one patron god, and as ‘National Georgraphic’ stories get more common, you’ll see more and more.

–
Poor Binders. Not as good as a regular Warlock, OR as a Trapper Keeper.

11

I’ve always had a problem with the “Maesters”.

The Maesters are a quasi-empiricist group of scholars that collects and values data, performs experiments, teaches technical, medical, engineering etc. skills and if you follow the book’s historical chronology has been around for THOUSANDS OF FUCKING YEARS.

ASOFAI is supposed to be a kinda/sorta more “realistic” sword and sorcery tale with heroes not getting a break and villians sometimes prevailing, but even as a fictional conceit, for a group with this progressive orientation to have advanced knowledge so very little over millenia pushes the envelope of disbelief more than dragons etc.

12

As later books will show, the Maesters are a profoundly conservative organization.

13

It’s not a terribly respected major, though. Which is likely because

the Maesters may have been deliberately responsible for the disappearance of magic in the first place.

14

After reading his latest book I’m pretty much done with the books. He’s just phoning it in at this point with vastly amounts of literary padding and overwriting that advance the action and the plot an inch every hundred pages.

15

DwD frustrated me, but I’m not giving up. Like Wheel of Time, another one whose author needed a better editor, I want to find out how the story ENDS! I’m not giving up at this point.

16

Yes, I encourage you to press on. Even when he’s not at his best, Martin is still head and shoulders above his peers. This will be, I’m convinced, a series worth finishing (for both author AND fans!).