Religion vs Science

I often find myself in arguments with Christians about the Big Question: “Is there a God, and, if so, where can I find one?” Inevitably, their sole proof for a God stems from the Bible as in : “cause the Bible says so” or “In Genesis 4:4, blah, blah, blah…”. Although I have a healthy respect for Christians, it seems meaningless for them to try to ‘prove’ their faith to me. Isn’t that what faith is all about? It’s impossible to prove such a thing. Yet, they always seem to want to try. Personally I will just worship myself (“Joshism”, thus, I am a “Joshite”), til something better comes along.
My question is this, directed mostly to those Christians who post on these boards: Do you believe that you have any infallible proof to prove there is a God?

“And Behold, Josh said he must have sex, and thus sex he had.” - the Book of Josh, Puberty 5:7

That all depends on your definition of infallible . . .

I believ God exists, but when it comes right down to it I can’t point to anything factual. It’s just something I know in my heart. I don’t know how to describe it. I could go with some scientific stuff, but that’s not really going to help you because we’re talking about a differences in material. Science has a physical nature. God, to me, has a spiritual nature. The one doesn’t really prove the other, in my mind.

And what if God isn’t a Christian?

It also depends on what “prood” means. Is it something which convinces someone that something is true, or is it something that one can present to other people to convince them?

I have no idea what “prood” means. Did you just make it up? :slight_smile:

What standard of proof would you hold as valid? Something that can convince most people or something that can convince you? There are still some people in this world who think the earth is flat despite gobs of evidence to the contrary. I’m just guessing but I bet the stndard of proof you’d hold as valid is beyond what anyone could provide.

Besides all that, faith seems to be the basis of all religion. You’re commitment to something greater that isn’t tangible. A more common example might be extreme commitment to a leader or commitment to a cause you strongly believe in. Say you are really committed to saving the whales (just as an example). Do you need proof that this is a good cause or do you do it because you believe it is a good cause? Even if you say saving the whales is empirically a good thing I might respond that saving abused children is a better and more worthwhile cause and thus more deserving of your attention (such as a Muslim might say his/her religion is better than Christianity).

In the end I don’t believe anyone can provide proof. If proof does indeed exist I suspect it lies on the other side of death so you’ll never be able to tell the living about it.

Belief is something held to be true, wich does not have to be based upon examination of evidence, but which can be. I can ‘believe’ that the world is flat, or that it is round, and that belief may be based upon my examination of the evidence or it may be based upon my refusal to accept evidence. Thus, one can attempt to prove that a ‘belief’ represents actual fact, or one can simply establish through evidence why one has the belief.

‘Faith’, on the other hand, is the acceptance of something that cannot be established through proof. Faith is the acceptance of a truth without needing proof. It, too, can be based on evidence, but it needs no evidence. It is certainty in the face of facts that would lead someone to question the validity of the truth asserted. Proving that a ‘faith’ is ‘true’ is impossible.

See for simple definitions the web site Merriam-Webster Online.

Applying these concepts to Deism, we can say that a person may believe that there is (a) God. That belief may be based on evidence (e.g.: the apparent fact that man is the sole ‘intelligent’ life in the whole universe, or the evidence of the incredible complexity of the interrelation of living things), or it may be based entirely on non-evidentiary considerations (e.g.: my father believed in God, so I believe in God). Reference to evidence that supports a belief is not inherently contradictory to the concept, though not all such evidence is sufficient to prove the FACT believed. That is, you can point to evidence that leads you to believe in God, but that evidence may not be evidence that God actually exists.

Faith in God, on the other hand, is the unshakable acceptance of the existence of God, and usually a particular God, complete with certain accompanying ideals. It needs no proof, it asks no evidence; indeed, it stands unshaken in the face of evidence tending to prove the non-existence of God. To use evidence to support one’s faith is to demonstrate some difficulty in sustaining that faith; it shows that one feels a need to have a reason to believe, but that faith isn’t enough.

IMHO, the tendency to try and ‘prove’ the existence of God, or the ‘fact’ of Creation (as it is believed to have occurred by some Christians) is a direct outgrowth of the tendency by our society to accept as true that which ‘science’ hypothesizes as true based on available evidence. Thus, for example, a geologist looks at the evidence available and hypothesizes that certain rocks are 3 billion years old. Society takes this pronouncement to mean the rocks ARE 3 billion years old, which is a belief, not a truth. Those who have beliefs that are in conflict with this commonly accepted belief, when they dissent, are pointed towards the evidence; in response they attempt to demonstrate their own evidence supporting their own belief. The majority lose sight of the fact that they have a belief, those opposed lose sight of the meaning of faith.

Organised religion seems to me to be exceptional wisdom interpretted by thousands of years of human ignorance. But hey it has its functions as has shaped so much of modern society so who am i but another idiot when i bag it.
When we think about modern society we must look at science. In an atheistic society science becomes the new religion as it answers such questions of the mundane. Science and religion have very close ties and it can be said that science has sprung from religion.

Alchemy is one such example of scientific methods to be used within a religion.

highly recommended reading on the relationship between eastern religion and science is “Fritof Capra; The Tao of Physics.”

This is something that I have been researching myself lately… I do believe in God, though I’m not yet sure if I am a Christian or not (there is a difference).

I used to be an atheist. Here are some of the things that changed my mind:

-The Big Bang theory (implies a creation to me, and creation requires a Creator)

-The Bible is the only religious book that describes a creation event that fits with the Big Bang.

-The Bible refers, a couple of times, to “before time”… there was no time (in our universe) before the Big Bang (seems like an odd notion for the average person to think of, especially a couple of thousand years ago)2 Timothy 1:9, for example.

-the numerous scientists who (many of them squirming when they say it) admit that the universe seems to be remarkably finely tuned to allow for life (yes, that could be explained by the fact that we evolved here… but there are an infinite number of possible universes where life could not exist…)Isaiah 45:18* “God did not create it (the universe) to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited.”*

-the chances that life could begin and evolve spontaneously (given that there has only been a few billion years for this to happen) seem to be very small to me… especially given the fact that life appeared on Earth almost immediately after the Earth cooled enough to allow it to survive. Hoyle and Wickramasinghe calculated the odds of proteins coming together to form life from random events at 1 in 10[sup]40,000[/sup] (OK, we can side-step that with the Panspermia theory… but that is only avoiding the question of the probability of life beginning spontaneously! If life did not begin here, on life-friendly Earth… where, then?)

-I simply don’t buy that evolution (unassisted)could go from simple life to human beings in the time allotted (about 3 billion years, ignoring the mass-extinction events)!

-the number of co-incidences in the universe (the apparent size of the moon and the sun being almost exactly the same from earth, 111111111 x 111111111=12345678987654321, Earth’s orbit being circular enough to keep us in a zone where life is possible, Jupiter being where it is to help sheild us from comets and asteroids, the Earth’s atmosphere developing just the right way, and at just the right time, to clear enough for photosynthesis while also sheilding the surface from UV radiation… there are many!!)

-there are references in the Bible that state that the heavens attest to the greatness of God’s work Psalm 19, for example… and modern astronomy seems to be doing just that!

Weirdness, eh? I honestly don’t like the conclusions I am reaching as I look into this more and more… I was relatively happy as an athiest!!! I’m leaning towards concluding that the Old Testament provides, at least, a metaphorical explanation of the universe… but what of the New Testement? I have no answer for that, yet!

As for organized religion… so far I haven’t much use for it…

Astroboy14–

More power to you on your new found faith. Seriously…I wish I had more faith myself.

That said I think you are placing too much emphasis on simple coincidence or chance.

111111111 * 111111111 = 12345678987654321 is meaningless in itself. It’s kinda cool but really no more remarkable or cosmic than 2+2=4.

Life on earth may be the result of a remarkable string of coincidence and chance but it does not require a deity to make it happen. It’s fine to believe that if you wish but it in no way can be seen as evidence.

The earth in just the right place? Jupiter sweeping the solar system? Just the right amount of primordial goo in the right conditions to get everything started? Chance, chance and chance again.

Think of the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone and consider that astronomers are finding planets around many of them (so it seems planets are somewhat common). 10[sup]40,000[/sup] is an easy chance to hit when you roll the dice for every planet in the galaxy (not to mention the universe). Winning a lottery is highly unlikely…you’re far more likely to be hit by lightning or eaten by a shark…yet people win them all the time. If your chances are 1 in 70,000,000 and 70,000,000 people pick unique numbers the somebody will win even though the individual chances are nearly impossible to meet.

As to life forming in 3 billion years not being enough you might want to rethink just how big a number 3 billion really is. That’s a LONG time. If you started counting now you’d probably die of old age before reaching 3 billion (3 billion seconds is over 95 years). In addition, there is some evidence in the fossil record that evolution has proceeded from simpler (read less complex) life to more advanced forms so science may say this is possible.

Again, rock & roll on your theological exploration. I hope you find your answers!

I won’t delve into the congruence, or lack thereof, between Genesis 1 and Big Bang Theory, but try the Enuma Elish. The creation tale described in Genesis 1 was based on that Mesopotamian folk tale (read: Pagan creation story), i.e., the Bible is not the only religious text with a creation tale that “coincides” with Big Bang Theory.

Well, I don’t want to undermine your faith. I used to believe in god, and now I don’t. But it isn’t my goal to bash everyone. That said, the quote above is sort of the idea around what I believe is called the anthropomorphic principle. The AP basically says what you say, but gets a different meaning out of it.
The fact that life requires such a delicate balance of physical law in no way proves the existence of a guiding force because, if the universe were any other way, we wouldn’t be here to pose these questions.

In other words, of course it seems strange that the laws of the universe were “made” for us…because if they were any different we couldn’t be here! Needless to say, there could have been quadrillions of years of history, universes forming and collapsing, etc etc, and only in this one are we here because the conditions were just right.

Now, I don’t take much stock in these sorts of things other than thought experiments and such, but it is good to have other opinions, especially in a topic so huge as this.

That said, there’s also a huge “faith” thread along similar “proof” topics. It’s already pretty long though.
Page1 Page2 And the nub, at this time, of page three

I think in page 2 I “prove” my atheism.

There is one thing I have never quite understood about the theory that everything began only by chance, with no “greater power” creating it.

Some theories say that it all started from just a big bang or one-celled organisms evolving and crawling out of a murky soup, or just a series of unbelievable coincidences. All of these fail to answer one question…who got the ball rolling?

If it was a big bang…what caused the bang to happen in the first place? Even if you think the bang happened by chance, how did the bang just happen to make everything fall so magically in place?

And if the one-celled organisms evolved and crawled out of some primordial soup, then where did the soup come from? What made certain cells become alive? How did life just spontaneously begin in these little cells? Science, in all its glory, cannot duplicate this feat, they cannot bring cells to life, no matter what technology they develop.

It seems to me that no matter how intent one is to dismiss the possibility that a higher power was involved in getting everything started, there are certain questions that they cannot just explain away. Science can only explain things back to a certain point. They can only go so far back without running out of answers.

This argument is called the “First Mover” argument and was made terribly famous by a certian Thomas Aquinas. Truly a fantastic argument, and if you care to find out what more modern thinkers have to say about it just pick up a philosophy book.

As well, reading up on some of the “layman’s” quantum physics books will talk about creation and how it wasn’t necessary for anything to be there at all, not even a universe. I can recommend “In Search of Schrodinger’s Cat” by John Gribbin; or, more to the point, “In Search of the Big Bang” by the same. Great reads, but he can sometimes get a little technical if you’ve got no background in science.

Just some ideas. After looking into it you might still take sides with the First Mover argument; you won’t be alone, and at least you looked around.

What? The first book of Genesis does not sound much like the big bang to me.

**

In my King James it says “before the world began”. Not the same thing as “before time”. If you have any other cites I’d like to know about them.

**

For all we know there ARE an infinite number of universes without life.And we lucked out. Actually, personally, I would think if a benign creator made this particular universe just for us he would have included less expanses of lifeless void. This universe is made just for us but we can only live on 0.0000000001% of it? WTF?

**

Humans are pattern seeking creatures.**
[/QUOTE]

Most religions developed at a time when our knowledge of the world was mostly limited to our immediate senses. Since most of nature was truly mysterious with great voids to be filled, it is not surprising that our explanations involved great and mysterious powers to fill those voids.

Science as I have said is an attempt to answer many of those same questions as religion. The crucial difference I believe is in the way science deals with the unknown and the new. In science it is allowable to say “we just don’t know.” Science is comfortable with the idea that there are things still to be discovered and that ideas we have now may prove in future to be very wrong (that is not to say scientists are comfortable with being proven wrong - we are all human with brittle egos - but science itself thrives on it). In fact science is even able to rationalize about the unknown and make an attempt to quantify it in some areas. Knowing something about what it is we don’t know is a very powerful idea. In this way science can accept new ideas which contradict old ones without in any way contradicting science itself.

It is in this last way that I feel religions - at least what I know about them - are too fragile. By filling the unknown with an all-encompassing explanation we make that explanation too vulnerable to contradiction from new ideas. If you start knocking holes in the edifice you are in danger of a total collapse so new ideas become dangerous.

Sure science runs out of answers but this is it’s strength. It is also religions weakness that it must answer everything.

I would like to commend you, Ticker. I have never been one who felt that everyone has to agree with my beliefs and opinions. We all have the right to disagree, and debate these opinions in an open and civil manner.

You quoted me, and then wrote a response that was logical, thought provoking, and itelligent. You did not resort to personally attacking me, and I appreciate that. Although I do not agree with all you wrote in response, I do agree with your debating technique.

We all can learn from Ticker…thanks again!

None of the things which you cite as leading you to faith bear up well under rational scrutiny. That does not mean you are wrong ot have faith, obviously, but if your faith is based solely upon “evidence” such as this, you do yourself a disservice.

first cause As others have mentioned, first-cause arguments are not new and have been attacked on logical grounds since before either of us were born. If you wish, we can get into specifics. If not, I will simply observe that there is absolutely no connection between an axiomatic first cause and any particular conception of God. The Big Bang itself satisfies first cause every bit as well as “God” does. This is by no means the only problem with the argument.

Bible & Big Bang common elements between Genesis and the BB are surface similarities at best. One could aply a similarly metaphorical reading of many other creatio myths and find similar “similarities”. [sub]personally, I vote for egyptian myths–masturbating the Universe sure sounds like a “big bang” to me ;)[/sub]

before the beginning of time Yep, I can find translations that use that phrasing. It seems a nice poetical phrase, to me. I see nothing startling that someone would use “before time began” to convey a sense of eternal grace.

tailored Universe If the Universe were not capable of supporting life, then we would not be here to marvek at how many factors allow the Universe to support life. In other words, the condition of living in a Universe capable of supporting life is exactly what one would have to observe whether God created it for us or we evolved without guidance within it. Therefore, that condition provides no support for either option. QED.

Hoyle and Wickramasinghe Do indeed present an argument through probability that bacterial life originiated extraterresrially. The numbers they use to derive their proability, however, can be attcked in multiple ways. One response can be found here.
Personally, I think the greatere problem with their calculation comes from the fallacy of converse accident (applying a specific example rather than a general case). Either way, the argument is analagous to the case above.

don’t believe evolution could produce humans in 3 billion years I suspect this is because humans find it very difficult to understand just how looooooooong 3 billion years is. Regardless, this is a statement of personal belief, not evidence.

111111111 x 111111111=12345678987654321
So? A pattern in decimal multiplacation is eidence of God? Why do you believe God uses base 10? Why not hex?
Or binary?
69F6BC7 * 69F6BC7 = 2BDC546291F4B1
110100111110110101111000111 * 110100111110110101111000111 = 101011110111000101010001100010100100011111010010110001

Jupiter I just love this one. By “being where it is” I assume you mean “in the Solar System”. I mean, you don’t think Jupiter’s orbit is in sync with ours so that it provides a continual “shield” against comets do you? Yes, having a planet of large mass in the Solar System means fewer comets strike the earth. Having an even bigger planet, or several planets the same size, would provide even better protection. Why didn’t our “tailored Universe” make us really safe? I can picture it now:
God: I’ll make a planet for my creatures. Let’s see, I like dinosaurs. I’ll make lots of dinoasaurs. Oh, and I’ll put a big planetary shield out there to protect them from the comets I am going to make. Wait – I’ll probably get tired of them after a couple of hundred million years. I’d better make the planetary shield not quite large enough so a comet can sneak by and clear away the dinosaurs once they get boring.

Or maybe not.

heavens as God’s work Please give some examples of these recent developments in astronomy. I doubt that they actually provide evidence for divine creation, but I can’t say for certain without details.

{Bolding fixed. I can send you my addy and you can mail a 4-pack to my home, Spiritus, and then you’re set for the next two times, eh? :wink: --Gaudere}

[Edited by Gaudere on 12-06-2000 at 12:22 PM]

Gaudere, double or nothing on the pint if you fix yet another misplaced bracket for me.

I will use preview.
I will use preview.
I will use preview.
I will use preview.
I will use preview.
I will use preview.

[sub]The sad part is – this is probably the first post in since my last “episode” that I haven’t previewed. sigh.

Where’s the clue stick, anyway?[/sub]

Spiritus and I both discuss the fallibility of first mover arguments AND discuss the anthromorphic principle.

Spiritus and I agree on something.

Thus, the world is about to end. :smiley: