I just thought I would quote this in case anyone missed it. Merneith, you have put this so very well. I wish all those who think we should just be nice to the poor stupid bigots could read this and truly get it. I know they won’t, but I can wish. Thanks for writing this.
I don’t recall any judge issuing such a stay. Iggy?
Nor I. I am not a lawyer. Was just explaining where the 25 day number came from.
I have already noted in this thread that I have no problem with calling out people like Santorum and Robertson as bigots. They are. They are loud about their prejudices. They have influence on a certain number of people.
I believe that calling your next door neighbor who has shared barbecues with you, shoveled the snow off the walk of his little-old-lady neighbor, watched your kids, and picked up your mail while you were on vacation a bigot is counterproductive. I have never seen such an action result in a change in mind or behavior. No one on this thread has provided a single bit of evidence that such behavior has had a beneficial effect. No one has provided evidence that the news media has routinely referred to the large body of opponents of SSM as bigots, (as opposed to calling Limbaugh or Hannity bigots–rare enough, itself), or that anyone has routinely used that term in a forum where the audience was not already pro-SSM.
I will not attack people who insist on using the term as a general label, but no one has provided any reason for me to join them.
And yet, the changes that have occurred have happened without using the term bigot in the MSM or directed at large groups of people where they would hear it used.
We are talking about describing a clerk that defies the law and refuses to issue a marriage license to a same sex couple as a bigot.
Not yelling.
Not “calling someone out”.
Actually, “we” are not. A claim was made that accusations of bigotry had helped to get the country where it is today. i have challenged that claim and am still awaiting any evidence that it might be true. it is a sub-thread in this larger thread. If you would like to call a clerk who refuses to issue a marriage license “bigot,” that is fine.
In 2015, if you are still against SSM probably nothing is going to change your mind. Ridicule and condemnation is kind of like last resort measure. I don’t recommend beginning a conversation about SSM by calling someone a bigot, but, if they persist strongly in giving the standard litany of bigoted arguments against SSM, then I’m not going to feel bad if someone loses patience and calls them a bigot. I don’t like the fact that some people are not going to change their mind and will allways oppose SSM. If ridicule and contempt is the only thing that will silence them then that is what we need to do.
Based on history, you are wrong. Attitudes by whites (generally), have improved since the heyday of the Civil Rights movement. Rather more people are open to inter-racial marriage than were open to it in 1967, (and while some of that is due to older people dying off and younger ones growing up without that prejudice, there are a lot of people alive, today, who would have opposed it in 1967 and do not oppose it today). As SSM becomes more common and as the other fights for gay rights, (workplace, lodging, etc.) continue, there are probably quite a few people who currently oppose SSM who will come to accept it.
Based on reality, you are wrong. I know lots of people who use the N word almost at will behind closed doors but would never do it in public unless they were around other people they knew were racist too. Nothing is ever going to change these people’s mind. The fact that lots of people do change does not alter the fact that a slim margin or racists will NEVER change.
ETA: If social pressure, ridicule and condemnation is applied to people who are “slow” to change but who “eventually” change, well, good, lets speed up the process.
It’s a good thing no one ever called those people racist!
More likely, the ones who were called racist are the ones that Robert163 keeps running into who are mad about being called names.
Sorry. You are cherry-picking anecdotal data and trying to expand to generalities from that.
I never claimed that racism has died. I noted, correctly, that the attitudes of many (not all) people have changed in regard to race. Look at overall numbers of people who would accept inter-racial marriage, people who would not object to a black co-worker or neighbor. Those numbers are up, substantially, from the 1960s and they include many people whose attitudes have actually changed.
Your claim was that anyone who held an anti-SSM position, today, would absolutley hold that position and never change. Certainly, many opponents of SSM will hold to those views until their deaths. But a claim that no one will change their views, (particularly in light of the fact that over 50% of the country already changed their views in the last 10 years), is nonsense.
Most people currently in the LGBT human rights movement know what Miller is referring to - the tendency of straight people to “advise” the LGB community “why don’t you just protest in quiet dignity so I can enjoy my beer?” Or “advising” my people “can’t you just be a girl on the inside?” :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Thanks…I think?
Calling bigots bigots seems to have a better track record than treating gay people as second-class citizens or telling them to stop being gay.
I don’t claim to be tolerant.
I wasn’t giving that advice, so… whatever.
One of the things to understand here is that most of us never really spent much time thinking about gays, back in the days when most gays were in the closet. It wasn’t some difficult question we wrestled with. It’s only recently that many of us have had to think about it at all. I don’t remember exactly, but I’m pretty sure my first response to the idea of SSM was… are you kidding me??? It made no sense to me. But once it became an issue, and after thinking about, it made total sense, and I’m 100% in support of full gay rights. But I didn’t get that way because someone called me a bigot, and I can’t imagine that being of any help at all, other them generating a feeling of resentment towards the name caller at the time.
You have said you believe that, in the wake of Obergefell, same-sex couples should not expect to get marriage licenses. You may not have said “protest quietly” but it’s the same general theme.
Here’s an article about some homophobic remarks made by a Houston city councilwoman. Towards the end, there’s this bit:
“When an aide cautions that ‘the newspaper will get you’ if she reveals what she really thinks, she answers, ‘That’s why I never would say that outside, because they’d kill me.’”
Now, why would she think that, if nobody ever publicly associated homophobia and bigotry?
A Slate article, titled "What do homophobic bigots really think? posted over a picture of anti-marriage protestors.
Another HuffPo piece, titled “Giving Sexual Bigotry its Due”
One from the other side, from a religious website, arguing against the idea that opposition to gay rights makes you a bigot. I can’t imagine how they got the idea that it might be homophobic, given the total information blackout the Gay Cabal has instituted on expressing the idea that opposing gay rights is bigotry.
Andrew Sullivan argues that Alec Baldwin is a bigot for calling someone a “cocksucking fag.”
Ta-nehisi Coates has Sullivan’s back on that one.
And Dan again, explicitly calling Mitt Romney a homophobe.
Honestly, I could do a whole page here of nothing but Dan Savage demonstrating you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, but I’ll move on in the interest of variety.
Here’s a fantastically insulting video from a Catholic group (surprise!) that attempts to dress up opposition to marriage in the language of people coming out of the closet. Includes a specific distancing of anti-marriage attitudes from the term “bigot,” which is bizarre, considering that there’s apparently no way this person could have been aware that gay people consider anti-marriage attitudes to be a form of bigotry.
Here’s an article calling Chik-Fil-A CEO Dan Cathy’s anti-marriage stance homophobic.
Now lets hear from the queer on the street:
Comparison of anti-marriage positions to segregation.
I don’t speak French, but I’ve got a pretty good idea what “l’homophobie” means.
Another protestor, carrying a sign rejecting the idea that religious faith excuses homophobia.
Here’s a woman calling out opposition to marriage as a form of hate.
Going international, here’s a gay rights protest showing Putin as Hitler.
Since you appear to have been living under a rock for the last thirty years, that last one is a reference to NoH8, which was organized to counter the anti-marriage Prop. 8 initiative in California. No H8 bumperstickers were a popular item for a while there.
Now, are there any other absolutely fucking asinine assertions you need debunked, or are you done wasting everyone’s time here?