Religious loopholes

Great Debates
1

Is there any prevailing religious views on loopholes in religion, and do dopers of these relgions feel that such loopholes are permitted by religious laws? I’ll cite some examples of loopholes from different religions to underscore what I’m talking about.

In Islam it is apparently forbidden to accept or pay interest. There are now “Islamic mortgages”, which are essentially a way of getting around the rules, while still allowing a loan with interest. From a recent NY Times article:

"Over the last few years, several Islamic-friendly lending programs have popped up across the region to help solve the problem. They offer creative loans that skirt the laws against riba by creating joint-owner partnerships or charging lease fees in place of interest.

The difference may seem largely semantic, but the loans are deemed halal, or clean, by Islamic scholars. And they are becoming a popular route for Muslims who want to buy homes, bankers said."

Similarly, I was involved in a business transaction where rather than accept monetary interest, and Islamic group took payment in precious metals, which they immediately sold for money (at a cost to themselves in the process) which somehow allowed the transaction, but still resulted in essentially interest being paid.

I also lived in an apartment building with a large concentration of Orthodox Jews. Most lived on the lower floors as they would not be able to use electricity on the Sabbath, making a trek up the stairs to the twentieth floor arduous without the elevator. However, some did live closer to the tenth floor. Often, there would be a family waiting on the first floor on the Sabbath for a non-Jew to come along to push the elevator buttons for them, in which case the family would be allowed to get on the elevator; they weren’t the ones using electricity, I was.

I’ve also heard (anecdotal evidence, which if someone comes along and says it is not true, I will accept that) that it is permitted to put lights on timers, so that they will be on during the Sabbath, but not actually turned on during the Sabbath.

There are also appliances with a “Sabbath mode”, from the Lowe’s website:

"When the consumer activates this feature, the oven may be set either to go on immediately and stay on for a set amount of time, or turn off automatically after a set amount of time.

The oven will stay at the temperature the user selects when entering the Sabbath mode. The digital control display will not show time, temperature, or selected oven function until the Sabbath mode feature is manually de-activated at the conclusion of the Sabbath or holiday. While this may seem unusual to many people, it makes it possible for observant Jews to serve warm food on the Sabbath and Jewish holidays, the underlying principle being that it is permissible to use electricity that is already on but not to turn it on or off during the duration of the Sabbath or Jewish holiday."

I’m sure that there are examples from Christianity as well.

I don’t mean this to be a nit-pick, “look how silly they are” sort of thing. While, to me, this does seem silly, and seems like it is mocking the god that one believes in by trying to outsmart him. I wanted to know if there is debate within the given religions about whether these are (sorry…) Kosher. How do orthodox dopers (of any religion) view such loopholes?

2

Meant to put this in GD. Though, I wasn’t even sure about that. If a mod wants to move this somewhere more appropriate, and deems GD a good place, that’s fine.

3

Another example of this is the Amish, who are allowed to use telephones but may not have them in their homes. However, if you drive through Amish villages there are often payphones at the end of every other driveway. It smacks of cheating to me, but seeing as I’m not Amish–or Islamic, or Orthodox–I can’t see how it’s any of my business to complain about it. It is interesting though, the mental and semantic gymnastics some will go through to skirt around thorny issues like this.

4

It seems to me that this stuff goes against the intent of the laws. If I believed in God, and I really thought these laws came from God, I’d be pretty hesitant to try and find loopholes. I wouldn’t treat the omnipotent being that created the universe as a bureaucrat. If He wants me not use electricity on that day, the right thing to do is not use electricity that day.

But ironically, the idea of an omnipotent being caring about stuff like that would also likely push me towards atheism again anyway. Or at least away from organized religion.

5

It’s my understanding that for Orthodox Jews, the prohibition is against work, not use of electricity. So while turning an oven, a light, or an elevator on would involve work, using something that has been turned on either before the Sabbath starts or by a non-human (timer) or non-Jewish means isn’t a problem at all. Hence the employment of a “Sabbath goy” by many synagogues.

The Amish are more interesting; while they live simply at home, they will use whatever mechanical implements they’re required to by law or where old-fashioned means would be impractical or dangerous in today’s world (taking a horse and buggy onto the freeway to go five states over, for example). There’s an Amish farmer’s market near me where all kinds of mechanical appliances are used – fryers, roasters, refrigerators, scales, printers – but no cash registers and, except for one young woman I saw, no calculators; your bill is added up by hand.

I agree that a lot of it seems to be trying to get around what are perceived as deity-ordained strictures to take advantage of modern conveniences. But since I don’t believe that any God I would believe in would get to what I perceive as the petty level of calling flipping a light switch work or objecting to me having a telephone in my home, it’s a non-issue for me if those who do believe choose to find ways around things that their consciences can be comfortable with. That ultimately is what is behind it all, IMO.

6

All sounds like bullshit to me. Do it right or don’t do it at all. Hypocracy like that is a joke.

Semi-related tale: I once worked with a real slimeball who would always mooch food from his coworkers. He would try to get us to buy food he was “allowed to eat”. I quickly learned that if I ordered pizza with both meat and cheese, he was screwed! I never had to share again!

(not that I was really that stingy, but this guy was a habitual, line-stepping, mooching food thief.)

7

I like the fact that, if nothing else, these “loopholes” require thought, and lots of it. They require people to examine their relationship with the Divine and their religion and try to suss out what is truly important to their spiritual well-being and what is claptrap. We may have different conclusions and definitions of claptrap, but at least it gets the noggin’ thinking about Divinity and our place in it, which is always a good thing in my book.

And, like **Mama Tiger **says, the Sabbath prohibition is against work, not electricity; Sabbath is a time when one should be concentrating only on Holy Things and not mundanities. It’s a time when your own personal holy spirit descends and spends time in your body - work shouldn’t distract you from such a cool thing! In the past, all Sabbath food would be cooked on Friday morning, so no one would be distracted by cooking later on; now the oven is on a timer so the food is even fresher and no one needs to be distracted by stale or cold food. The person waiting for you to come press the elevator button would have been (or should have been) using that time to fully experience Divinity, and I bet the fact that he had to wait made him think about G-d at least a little bit. That’s what Sabbath is for. It’s not about deprivation - it’s actually about indulgence.

Again, the Amish ideal of living simply is to not have extra not-needed junk cluttering up your physical and spiritual life. It’s not about depriving yourself of a telephone if you *need *to make a call; it’s more about not letting chatting on the phone become a pleasant diversion which pulls you away from your family, work and church. It seems that a phone at the end of a driveway would be one you’d use when it was needed, but it wouldn’t become a hobby. That’s pretty much within the spirit of living simply as I understand it. But yes, it does require one to think deeply about their relationship with their god to make sure it’s OK in their hearts.

Honestly, the interest-free leasing loan sounds more like a hypocritical loophole to me, but I freely admit I know very, very little about Islam or if there are finer shades of interpretation that would make it not hypocritical. But, again, hopefully it makes people think about their religion and what it is really saying to them.

8

You’re absolutely right. It’s one of the things that really honks me off about Judaism (and many other religions as well.) The kosher oven timer is a particularly egregious example. Of all the Jews I know (which is a lot) it seems to me that the more Orthodox they are, the harder they work to come up with obscure justifications for violating the spirit of the law. Not supposed to be working outside? Tie a string around a bunch of houses, and it’s all one house! Not supposed to use electricity? Program the elevator to stop at every floor, then you don’t have to push the button.

The whole damn point of the sabbath is that you should spend a day chilling out, not fidgeting over stupid and inconsequential actions and what may actually constitute “work.” Just chill the fuck out already! You’re doing more “work” memorizing 5,000 years of obscure regulations than it would take to press the fucking button.

Islamic mortgages are not new; Muslims have been making such arrangement for centuries, but they’re probably pretty new in the US. The end result is the same, of course, you end up with more money than you lent, but it’s not “interest” so it’s OK. Whatever.

I do give the Jews credit for at least realizing that fundamentally, it’s all ceremonial bullshit and life is the most important. A Jew will happily press a button on the sabbath if it’s a life and death emergency, or something. There’s a lot of crazy Muslims who would do well to learn that lesson.

9

Done.

Lynn

10

This thread is a little bit of fresh air to me. It seems like fundamentalist Christians get nailed in the Pit all the time while other religions get a free pass at direct criticism. I am not even close to being a fundamental Christian but I always notice that people in the Pit are much more tolerant of other fundamentalist faiths including those that are part of Judaism and Islam (the major exception is fundamental Muslims associated with terrorism).

Let me join in and say that Orthodox Jews and sometimes Not-So-Orthodox Jews come up with some crazy stuff in my way of thinking. I went to a heavily Jewish university and after, lived in a heavily Jewish neighborhood in Boston. Some of the contortions fundamentalist members of these faiths went through to skirt the laws of their religion was unbelievable.

Please note that I don’t hate them for it. I don’t even dislike them for it. I just thought it was kooky in the same way that fundamentalist Christians are kooky. Such is the way that are religions that aren’t your own.

I just always thought that it was odd that Orthodox Judaism is always given a free pass at being judged at all by outsiders on this board while fundamentalist Christians get nailed every day.

11

Well, that’s because Orthodox Jews don’t have a social-political prominence in life.
If they became as politically & socially vocal & influential as fund’ist C’tians seem, then only fear of appearing anti-Semitic would restrain the invective against them.

Incidentally, it’s because Orth & less-O Jews are social & political allies in many areas, that I’ve refrained till recently from questioning their views on JC.

12

That’s understandable. But, then shouldn’t there just be a “chill out” rule? I mean, no going to work or doing non-family, religious things. Why the need for the elaborate ways around being able to use an elevator? If the rules are about concentrating on the Sabbath, why not just use the elevator, and get to temple earlier and hassle-free?

13

This could be considered a loophole, but it’s really not, according to Islamic law. Riba`, or usury, in shari’ah is defined essentially as receiving money or goods in return for money or goods of the same type; hence, interest on a loan is forbidden, as it’s receiving money in return for lending out money, but so are transactions like trading two barrels of grain for three barrels of grain (as a hypothetical).

The way Islamic loans work is: say you want to buy a house, and you go to a bank for financing. Rather than the bank giving you the money to buy the house, and you paying the bank back more money over a period of time, you and the bank will go in as partners in ownership of the house, with what would normally be a down payment instead going towards a share in ownership. The bank will then charge you rent to live there. Over time, you will give the bank money in excess of your rent, to gain partial ownership of the house, until eventually you own the entire house. This way, instead of exchanging money now for money later, you’re paying rent and buying an increasing share in the ownership of the house.

14

I’m not arguing that the way the transactions are performed that they do not conform to Islamic law. But, by entering into one of these transactions, isn’t one disobeying the spirt of the law? Which is one thing in the secular world where you can use loopholes to get out of trouble, but in the religious world, doesn’t it sort of mock the particular deity?

I hope to hear from some Orthodox dopers to find out what the general view is within the community. I can’t imagine that there isn’t some recognition that there are loopholes being exploited. Is this just accepted?

15

Which is basically the same as any mortgage holder does without the religious mental gymnastics.

16

A good friend of mine is LDS. Once when we went on an overnight camping trip we got supplies and he wanted me to give him the cash for my share so he could get Discover card points. No problem until he saw I got a six pack of beer which he had me pay for separately. On the way to the campsite he said this came up in college where he would often loan friends money when they wanted to party but he would never actually pay for the alcohol himself. I decided not to debate that inconsistency and we had a good camping trip apart from the gyrations he went though so I wouldn’t see his temple skivvies.

17

A neighbor had an Amish carpentry crew working on her house. Every time they wanted to use a power tool, they called her over to turn it on. Once it was on, they were permitted to use it. She found it a huge pain in the butt. This is a pretty common issue that crops up in religions with legalistic tendencies (which, I’m sure some people would argue, is all of them).

We sometimes deliver organic crops to farmer in Amish country (there is a major Amish community 20-30 miles from us). We also have customers that are steel-wheel Mennonites. There are some other details, but their distinction from other sects is that they are allowed to have electricity, and they can have air-filled tires on anything that doesn’t have its own power. So wagons, etc. can have air-filled tires, but tractors, lawnmowers, and anything else with an engine must have steel wheels.

Our main steel-wheel customer recently shared the cost of a grain elevator (an implement with no motor) with his Old Order Amish neighbor. It had air-filled tires when it arrived. The next time we visited, it had steel wheels, and Mr. Stuff asked why. “Well,” said our friend, “Old Order folks can’t have air tires on anything. Them Amish have some funny ideas.” He was having fun with it; he knows his lifestyle is wildly inconsistent and seems pretty odd to others. He employs various loopholes himself, when he can. So, you ask, why doesn’t he just drop the whole thing?

Well, if you’ve never been inside a cultural system like that, it might be pretty hard to understand. It’s not just where he goes to church on Sunday, it’s his entire family, his wife’s entire family, all of his and his wife’s social contacts, nearly all of his business contacts … just about everything in his life is based on his religion. Even if he thinks some of the stuff is pretty silly, observing it is the price he pays for continuing to maintain all those relationships. It’s not perfect, but he can live with it, and it’s all he knows. It takes a mighty strong reason to break away.

In general, within the steel wheel community, loopholes are officially frowned upon, but tolerated, as long as the letter of the law is obeyed. Toeing the line will sometimes get you a talk with the bishop (sort of the head minister of the local church, if you’re not familiar with the Anabaptist terminology) if your toe gets a little too close to crossing. Exactly where the line is drawn depends on your local bishop and other leadership, and can be radically different from one congregation to the next. I’m familiar with many other Anabaptist communities locally, and my impression is that it is much the same for all of them. (Liberal-leaning Mennonites are an exception.)

Myself, I left a legalistic church to attend a conservative non-denominational one. I think all the legal wangling is unnecessary, and that the spirit of the law is much more important than nit-picking details. So I’d say that how loopholes are viewed within the religious community depends a great deal on who you’re talking to.

Wasn’t that a wonderfully long version of “it depends?”

18

I think this is a fascinating topic…

Take the sabbath restrictions on Judaism. The original idea, more or less, was that you should have one day out of the week where you’re not working, rather, you’re spending quality time with your family, and presumably contemplating God. So, if you had a bunch of dirty dishes on the sabbath, the law would command mom to just let them sit there so she could enjoy her family’s presence, rather than getting up and doing them. Fair enough. A reasonable guideline.

But then things started getting codified. Carrying things is “work”. Lighting fires is “work”. This is already, from a purely spirit-of-the-law business, silly. For instance, if it’s sabbath and it’s cold, are we going to have a better day of family togetherness and reflection if we take 20 minutes to gather wood and light a fire, and then gather around it, or if we don’t light the fire, and are frickin’ freezing all day long?

Then things get even worse when you take these very specific legalistic laws, and move them, unchanging, down hundreds of years of time and technological advances, such that pushing a button on an electrical device, which is CLEARLY not hard work at all, is “work”, because, for some unfathomable reason, electricity=fire.
Really, the purpose that these restrictions DO serve is one of community building, tradition, and continuity, more than anything else. So I think if someone were really trying to be a Good Jew, they’d have to follow the sabbath laws into two basically unrelated, and sometimes contradictory, ways: (1) they’d have to try to observe the spirit of the law, by truly taking one day out of every week to be happy and calm and spiritual and familial and so forth, and (2) in order to continue the unbroken link of being part of God’s chosen people, they’d have to obey a basically completely arbitrary set of restrictions.

Now, as for the loopholes, as long as you agree that the restrictions in (2) are arbitrary, and as long as the loophole itself poses some measure of difficulty, so that by going out of your way to use it, you are still feeling Jewish and doing something to kvetch about, then you might as well. If you just say to yourself “heck, carrying a wallet around is just part of modern life, and it requires NO extra effort and in NO way interferes with my calm sabbathness, so screw THAT rule”, then you’re rejecting Jewish tradition. But if you say “well, I’ll tie a string around the entire neighborhood, and walk around and check it once a week, and then the entire neighborhood is my house, and I can carry my wallet around inside the house, so…”, then you’re still having Jewishness intrude into your lives, while also being practical and 20th-century about it.
You also get into interesting spirit-vs-letter issues with something like the meat-and-milk issue. As I understand it, the original commandment was something like “don’t boil a calf in its mother’s milk”, which strikes me as basically a throwaway comment. I mean, who WOULD boil a calf in its mother’s milk? But, that’s what the Torah says. So we won’t do it. Now, in modern America, if all you wanted to do was strictly obey the Torah, that would be trivial. No one EVER boils calves in their mothers milk. I mean, the dairy industry and meat industry are unrelated enough that it will basically never happen. But that’s not the point. The point is now that the talmudic interpretation of don’t-boil-the-calf became “never eat milk and meat together”. So, the Jewish Experience now includes not-eating-cheeseburgers. So you might end up in a weird situation in the future where further advances in food science lead to cheeseburgers which are totally synthetic but taste exactly like real cheeseburgers, and thus are loopholes around laws that are already themselves not actually preventing you from violating the original law, which you couldn’t violate even if you wanted to, but eating that synthetic cheeseburger would actually be a much larger violation of the “part of being Jewish is that you don’t get to eat cheeseburgers” cultural tradition that grew up around the secondary law, but of course these days the cultural tradition part of it is the only part that really matters in an ongoing sense.

Wacky.

19

The OP seems to suggest that such partnerships in place of loans are a new innovastion, but when I first learned of them several years ago they seemed an old and established practice in Islam. It seems to me that , as a practical matter, some sort of “interest” is always necesary in loans – there are costs associated with the processes, and the person arranging the loan has to eat, too. My personal feeling is that , in getting rid of usurious loand practices, they went too far the other way, and now these complex gyrations are necessary to square theory with practice.

I might be wrong, but in any case, I’m not about to criticize anyone else’s justifications for practices that don’t cause anyone harm.

???

When I lived in SLC I saw plenty of Garments in the locker rooms. No one seemed shy or embarrassed about them at all. There were even bumper stickers: “Welcome to Utah. Land of Funny Underwear.”

20

I have no idea how long such loans have been around, and didn’t mean to suggest that they are a new thing. Merely suggesting that it seems like a lot of trouble to go through to trick god.

But, there is another issue. Could the economies of Islamic countries be significantly improved if they simply dropped the pretense? I cited the anecdotal evidence of the Islamic group who ended up losing quite a bit of money that they had earned simply because they had to accept payment in precious metals which they had to turn around and sell, losing money along the way. The only reason to perform such an action was to preserve religious belief. Issuing and buying debt is a necessary function, and can truly help an economy. Would Pakistanis be in much better state if they could simply issue debt?