Religious mottos under scrutiny again

Don’t you think we’ve had enough of children killing children? Enough violence? What about Littleton, CO? What about Oklahoma City? Violence is everywhere! Why? Because God is being systematically removed from our lives by the dark forces of Satan.

Ok, I’m making it up, but I’ve seen people saying things that you’d be hard pressed to distinguish from that. I mean people in real life, not trolls on message boards. I met some a few weeks ago who were going around door to door for a local church spouting stuff very similar to what I write above. Being against references to God is apparently the same as condoning the murder of children. God = good, therefor if you’re against (the 10C in schools/IGWT on money/etc), you must be for things that are bad, like murder and violence.


peas on earth

Jeez, man, you scared me for a minute there. :slight_smile:

Now that so many of our trolls got busted, somebody has to post inflammatory things! It’s gotten so quiet around here.


peas on earth

First off, I’m gonna remind David that his view of the First Amendment is not, nor ever has been, the law of the land as determined by its ultimate arbitor, the USSC. I’m not saying that they are right and David is wrong (I’ve argued for years that the prohibition against establishing a state religion in modern times should preclude ANY hint of religious leanings by government). But the law of the land doesn’t agree, so let’s not be quite so assertive that it is, please.
The reason that the particular quote which is our motto here was found to be unconstitutional by the court in question is because A) It is a direct quote from the main religious text of Christianity, and B) the Court felt it expressed an idea unique to the Christian religion (i.e., that God is the only way into the kingdom of Heaven, and that by believing in him, you can obtain anything you want). Read the opinion to understand these conclusions.

Now, as to objection A), clearly if what you have is a quote from the New Testament, that is a bit different than a general reference to some sort of deity in whom a lot of people put some trust. So this motto isn’t the same as, say, the Arizona motto: Ditat Deus (God Enriches). On the other hand, it should be noted that some other mottos that include the word “God” in them are also either quotes from the Bible, or derived from quotes, including, I am given to understand from today’s The (Toledo) Blade the motto “In God We Trust” (derived from a Psalm). Is it any less valid to use a quote from the New Testament than a quote from the Old Testament? Should the fact it is a quote be ignored in light of the fact that 1) most people won’t recognize it as such and 2) it isn’t cited as a quote (the initial opinion of the district court in Columbus ruled that the motto was able to be used as long as it wasn’t cited as a quote from the Bible).

As to point B, there is some considerable controversy. The basic idea that God is able to make anything happen is hardly a solely Christian philosophy. As is noted in an article in today’s Blade, the Qur’an contains several similar references to the power and ability of God (example given is Chapter 2, verse 106: “Know you not that God is able to do all things?”). BUT, the quote in question is not just a quote about an all powerful god. Put into the context from which it is taken, it is also a reference that you have to accept God to achieve salvation, that in believing in God, you can achieve what you want. So, should the motto be reviewed in terms of the general meaning (God is able to do anything), or the specific meaning (God must be accepted to get to Heaven)?

Of course, all of this makes one wonder what someone from say, Native American culture is thinking, or a Buddhist. But, as noted by the Supreme Court in 1983, the First Amendment wasn’t intended to remove all religion from government (Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783 (1983)). So far, the Court has declined to change that view. But as long as the motto of Ohio is perceived by the courts to be a specific Christian message, it is going to have trouble remaining the motto of Ohio.

I’m still awaiting an explanation on how “Live Free or Die” is a religious motto. Now, there are those who object, based on their religion, to that motto, but the motto, in and of itself, seems to be pretty religion-free. Or are you now asserting that atheists don’t have either a right to or a view of freedom?

DSYoungEsq said

Ready and able, sir! Where do I find it?

DavidB says “Are there greater violations out there? Probably. Does that mean we should ignore this one? Probably not.
I’ll agree with that.

IMHO changing a motto that probably almost no one ever sees is a waste of time and money. The fact that there are more important things out there means they should take precedence :slight_smile:

You can find the opinion of the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals at Motto Decision.

DSYoung said:

[quote]
First off, I’m gonna remind David that his view of the First Amendment is not, nor ever has been, the law of the land as determined by its ultimate arbitor, the USSC.

[quote]
Alas, I need no reminder. I know the Court occasionally disagrees with me. What can I say? They’re wrong. :wink:

Let’s try it this way:

Foolsg:

  1. You made an assertion about “Live Free or Die.”
  2. That assertion is that said motto is religious in nature.
  3. I stated I’m waiting on proof of it.
  4. Let me rephrase: How is that a religious motto?

David, I quite agree, er, that is, I quite agree they can be wrong, er, that is, I quite agree that, in the course of evolution of the opinion of the supreme law of the land they might make minor technical errors that seem to create the impression of incorrectness, er, that is, I mean that the law is a tricky and difficult thing to understand, requiring a specialized course of instruction and lots and lots of hours stuck in a stupid library to understand properly, if bar exam results are any measure, that is, well, that is I agree. :wink:

Ohio’s new state motto: “With God, or Allah, or Jehovah, or Buddha, or possibly Zeus, all things are possible.”

Monty wrote:

Actually, Foolsguinea said that “Live Free or Die” was “a statement of a particular belief”, not necessarily that said belief was a religious one.

If “In God we Trust” is Constitutional because it comes from a verse of “The Star-Spangled Banner”, and “With God, all things are possible” is not Constitutional because it comes from the Bible … where does that put the “One nation under God” line from the Pledge of Allegiance?

From the opinion by the Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit:

Similar language has been used to insulate the motto: “In God We Trust”
One cynically might note that it is interesting that we get worried about how our ‘Christian’ message might infringe on Jews and Muslims (no one ever mentions Buddhists for some reason), but we never seem to worry about the message our governmental acceptance of some religious basis sends to those who reject any deism. In the words of Sandra Day O’Connor:

Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

So, then, the Congressional resolution adding “under God” to the pledge of allegiance stated:

Hoo boy. <whistles> Nope, saying “God is sovereign” (“sovereign” meaning supreme ruler) sure isn’t a religious belief, nosirree bub. :rolleyes:

Methinks the House of Representatives that passed this resolution was a bunch of poopy-heads.

can not ‘GOD’ be anything to anyone? it fits many if not all. just insert your ‘GOD’.

if your ‘GOD’ is money then 'all is possible with vast sums of dough".

if you don’t have a ‘GOD’; believe in hopeless and despair (as an example); then ‘all is possible with GOD’ is an ironic twisted way of saying ‘it is hopeless’.

if your ‘GOD’ is logic then ‘all is possible if you look at things with reason’.


No.

Sorry, but making up definitions of words to suit you doesn’t change the real meaning of the words.


Yer pal,
Satan - Commissioner, The Teeming Minions

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We must have come very far indeed towards true equality and a utopian society that we worry to much about this kind of crap.

Thank God (oops can’t say that) that we’ve solved crime, hunger, and poverty, that our jails are empty, that all men have an equal chance in our system, and we can now turn our heads to these inconsequential details.

Perhaps the new state motto can be:

“Welcome to Ohio! Please don’t be offended!”

or

“You’ve got a lawsuit in Pennsylvania!”

I’d just like to think that this falls under the “Can you be to offended/stuff a truly enlightened society wouldn’t woory about” category.