“No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens; nor should they be considered as patriots.” – George Bush, Sr in 1988
“This is a christian nation, and non-christians are welcome into the tent as long as they agree to accept their status as a tolerated minority rather than fully equal citizens” – President G.W. Bush in Jan of 2001
“I strongly believe in seperation of church and state but freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion”. – Al Gore on Aug 28, 2000
If you’re not a born-again christian, you’re a failure as a human being." – Jerry Falwell
There isn’t a Dole one. Do you mean the Gore one? Separation of Church and state includes not having to choose a religion or be religious (freedom of and FROM religion). These jerks know they can get away with bashing agnostics and athiests because they’re a minority. People who care about the constitution and expect politicians to respect it seem to be a minority sometimes too.
Can you give me some background information for the quote from President Bush in January 2001? I’m rather surprised I never heard that before, and wonder if it is apocryphal.
Isn’t a Bush quote. It’s Alan Dershowitz’s description of what he considers to be the implication of Franklin Graham’s pre-inauguration prayer. It comes from an op ed piece for the LA Times. You have to pay to see the article online, but it’s January 24, 2001. This is the quote in question:
Your first quote, I seem to recall, was discussed over at snopes, and no one could verify that it was actually said. Whoever attributed the “christian nation” one is either very dishonest or their reading comprehension is crap. If these all came from the same source, I’d be doubting their accuracy about now.
Hah, lno, great minds think alike. I googled the quote for exactly the reasons you were suspicious of it. And I ponied up $2.50 for the article, so don’t say I never did nothing for ya.
No, I just got the quotes off of google, just as you did (probably thinking you had amazing stalker abilities and had “discovered” someplace I frequent).
I’m not sure if all of the quotes are geniune. I’ll admit that. If even one of them is for real the post was worth making. Flame me all you want about it.
Ooh, and it’s free, too! Thanks! I found a mention of the article on another site, and decided to go fishing for the original article, since I knew the LA Times was online.
Meantime, here’s as original as I can get with the Bush I quote:
Well, the post would have been worth making if you’d made sure the quotes were real, and only posted about that one real one.
Honestly, I agree with you entirely about the importance of the First Amendment. I am as appalled as you are when public figures treat it in cavalier fashion, or ignore it altogether. But when you get bent out of shape about fake quotes, you’re responding to propaganda, not actually venting righteous anger. If you weren’t sure they were genuine, why did you allow yourself to get upset about them? That’s just letting yourself be manipulated.
And Google has but one wish in the entire universe, one desire in its hardware, one single aim and purpose for its existence–to assist you in discovering information about nearly any topic you can imagine, including the source and accuracy of inflammatory quotes.
“Need not” is very different from “does not.”
The Fallwell I could only find on anti-Fallwell sites, but really, this is Fallwell we’re talking about. He’s always saying outrageous crap and then backpedaling or pretending he didn’t say it. And he’s not an elected official, his statments don’t have any implications for public policy.
I was pretty damn certain they were genuine, because I’ve read them in several different places before (and never seen anybody else calling them fake till now). And it turns out I was wrong about some of them. How about, before accusing me of flying off the handle over something I haven’t verified, you verify whether I have adequate reason to believe they are likely enough to be true to post at a FLAME BOARD. I’m not writing a dissertation here. It’s a message board. I’m not going to be as serious about verifying everything as I would be if I were, say, a journalist . . .
You threw a tantrum without checking the veracity of the quotes that pissed you off.
Yes, this is the Pit, but this is also the SDMB, and if you post something inaccurate, you will be called on it.
I don’t have to verify whether you have adequate reason to believe they’re accurate–that’s your job. A well-composed Pit OP will contain that information. And my searches turned up lots of reasons why you didn’t have adequate reason–namely, those quotes mostly appear on sites with agendas, as propaganda, and with no verification. And the second quote was, as already pointed out, so outrageous that it should have set off some alarms. It set off mine, certainly–checking Bush quotes isn’t something that usually gets me curious enough to do a search, but this one was just too far out there.
Yes, this is a message board, one with a distinctive culture–you can’t throw out random, unchecked facts and expect people to just go with them. Even in the Pit, some level of thought is required.
And pointing out that you were taken in by propaganda isn’t meant to be a personal insult, just some advice for the next time something outrageous pushes your buttons. Next time, question your source.
I did? Hmmm . . . I don’t recall that. Could you site sources? Oh, how about a 30 page deposition on the nature of this tantrum? What fun.
For all you know, you could be writing these extended advisory lectures to someone knowingly posting flame bait. Flame bait in a flame board? Wonders never cease.
Luddite, posting something as fact when it isn’t doesn’t fly whether you’re in ATMB, GD or the Pit, or anywhere in between.
As for this…
Actually I googled the tent bit looking for anything that would sy something either way about your OP’s quotes. I got jack shit that said it was legit but some that accuse Bush of stuff involving tents.
[sub]He will not comment on what he may or may not have done 26 years ago involving a tent;)[/sub]
Cite–your op, posted in the Pit, what you refer to as “A flame board.” Scroll up, there it is. One inarticulate and badly researched flame. Commentary is unnecessary, and apparently useless.
And digging for the truth is fun. That’s why I hang out here.
You haven’t spent much time here, have you. This sort of rejoinder is not only distinctly unclever, it stinks to high heaven of sour grapes and stung adolescent pride, and the behavior it appears to be claiming is not held in high regard here.
I could have called you an illiterate, credulous fool, this being a flame board and all, but I’m a polite person, and I assumed your sincerity and your desire to learn–this being the SDMB. Rather than flame you, I looked for information and offered what I found. Your response says nothing about me, but plenty about you.
I don’t recall ever throwing a tantrum, and telling me to reread my OP to convince me I threw a tantrum also stinks to high heaven of sour grapes and stung adolescent pride. You think I threw a tantrum, I know I didn’t. See? We both make mistakes. I have admitted I was wrong about the quotes. Why when I tell you you were wrong about the tantrum comment do you start comparing me to things such as an adolescent and someone who should be held in low regard here? The fact that I admitted my mistake and you didn’t says plenty about you as well.
I suspect (not claim, just suspect) that you get an emotional charge off of playing junior psychologist here, hedging insults with supposed advise. But, hey, I could be wrong. Can you?
Because you didn’t tell me I was wrong about the tantrum comment, you sarcastically asked me for a cite. But since you ask, I’ll give you this much–tantrum was probably a stronger word than neccesary. Your phrase “flying off the handle” was much more accurate.
I compared you to an adolescent not for the request for a tantrum cite (although that was pretty childish), but for the “maybe this is flame bait” comment.
Thousands of posters before you have made the same “well maybe I was just trolling, didja think of that, huh? huh?” post when they were called on something, and each one of them thought it was clever and original. It’s not adult behavior. And it’s not smart to claim as your defense that you’re trolling, not here where trolling is a bannable offense.
I’m not accusing you of trolling, by the way. I’m accusing you of suggesting you were as a way of avoiding admitting that you hadn’t been very smart about your OP.
And I didn’t say you should be held in low regard here, I said posting flame bait is a behavior held in low regard here. It was you who suggested you had done such a thing. I would much prefer that you be held in high regard here, but I daresay if you continue to bristle at any criticism you’ll have a hard time getting to that point.
You admitted that you didn’t know for sure that the quotes were genuine–but then you insisted it didn’t matter. But around here, it does matter. Which I tried to explain to you. And you couldn’t admit that mistake without groping desperately for reasons it hadn’t really been a mistake. That’s not much of an admission. “Well, sure, your honor, I guess when you put it like that I did kill her, but damn it, she deserved it!” Heck, that’s not even adolescent–my six year old does that. “But he made me do it! He started it!”
I can be, but I’m not in this instance. If you take advice and the mention that you’ve been mistaken as an insult, there’s nothing much I can do about that.
I’m trying to figure out where the “junior psychologizing” comes in, and I figure it’s one of two spots. One I’ve already mentioned.
The other possible “junior psychologizing” might be my suggestion that in allowing faked quotes to get you angry, you had been manipulated by propaganda. This is not psychologizing on my part. It is a fact that if you respond to propaganda, you have been manipulated. Take that as an insult if you want, it’s not one. Propaganda is constructed specifically to get a particular response, and if it does, that doesn’t mean you’re weak minded or stupid or anything else. On the other hand, continually allowing yourself to be manipulated, without questioning the information you’re swallowing, is indeed stupid and weak minded.
You can continue to insist that you have been wronged and insulted, or you can learn from your experience. The choice is yours.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bren_Cameron *
**
I compared you to an adolescent not for the request for a tantrum cite (although that was pretty childish), but for the “maybe this is flame bait” comment.
[QUOTE]
That’s my way of telling you it’s a bad idea to type so many of these long, lecturing, “for your own good” posts to a newbie. Lot’s of newbies are trolls, and I could be one. Statistically, you’re probably wasting your time. I’m not excusing my behavior, I just think you’re wasting your time. Just as you claim this should be a learning experience for me, it should also be a learning experience for you. Why do you keep replying, Bren?
Again with the assumption about my emotional state. I don’t bristle at any criticism, but I will argue on some instances, this being one of them.
No, I said if any of the quotes were real, the post wouldn’t be a complete waste. I never said the fact that some of them aren’t real after all doesn’t matter. I’m saying if any of them are true, that matters enough to make the OP not a complete waste after all.
[quote]
And you couldn’t admit that mistake without groping desperately for reasons it hadn’t really been a mistake.
[quote]
Jesus, how many times have I admitted in this thread I didn’t know some of them weren’t for real when I posted them?
As for junior psychologizing, I’m referring primarily to your condescending tone, saying (to paraphrase) “I could call you [insert insult] but I’m too good of a person to say that, although I just did”, trying to speak on behalf of the entire board (call to authority), and behaving like I should take anything you say as a learning experience, but anything I say is cart blanche for you to compare me to your six-year-old relative or claim I haven’t admitting to a mistake I admitted to several posts ago.
Halfway down the page.