Dubya as preacher: Religion in government

On the night of 9/11, I was huddled around the TV with a bunch of friends at their on-campus apartment, watching the news in quiet horror. There were ten or so of us there, all with very differing opinions of Dubya prior to the terrorist attacks, and a wide range of religious beliefs – from athiest to Catholic to Pagan – were represented among us. When the President came on to address the nation for the second time that day, we all sat up and took notice. We were all desperate to hear what our President might say to assure the nation, and every one of us, regardless of our feelings about him before that day, found that he was doing a fantastic job –

Until the end.

That was when he recommended that we put our faith in the hands of a high power and quoted Psalm 23: “Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for Thou art with me.” (this is, btw, entirely from my memory; I can try to find a news article to quote from if this is called into question, but I remember it fairly clearly.) Every one of us, from Catholic to Pagan, sat there with our jaws hanging open. We could not believe that he would quote Scripture to the country, even at this horribly trying time. The consensus we reached was that despite the majority of Americans’ being Christian, since our country has freedom of religion as one of its principles and there is still a good chunk of us who aren’t Christian, Bush’s quoting of Scripture was inappropriate. It may have reassured whoever was Christian (and Jewish, too, perhaps, though I honestly don’t know how the Jewish faith is about having Scripture quoted to them – I’ll go to GQ with that one), but it alienated the rest of us.

I took this question to my atheist-but-very-conservative mother, who was stunned that I was so upset by it. Her contention is that it was perfectly acceptable, and even expected, for Bush to find solace in his religion; also, since the majority of the country is Christian they did take solace in his words, and he needed to seek to console as many people as possible. I argue that he could have done so in a secular manner without needing to drag religion into it, and could probably have made more people feel comforted that way; Mom essentially thinks it’s my problem. I argued that if he found it absolutely necessary to bring religion into it, it would have been possible for him to simply leave it at “put your faith in a higher power” without quoting Scripture, thereby leaving his listeners free to choose their own higher power and alienating only the atheists and agnostics. Mom still wasn’t buying it and thinks I’m making a stink over nothing.

Now the question is yours to debate. Was this a snafu on Dubya’s part? Even though the majority of Americans are Christian, is it better to conduct matters of state in as secular a manner as possible, or should we be kowtowing to the majority religion? The latter idea makes me cringe because of that whole “separation of church and state” and “freedom of religion” thing, but I’ll stop mouthing off and let the venerable Dopers take over. one last thing, though, I’m very sorry if I’m bringing up something that’s already been discussed when this all happened two months ago – I did go back and look and didn’t seem to be able to find anything, so I figured it was worth a shot. Don’t hurt me if I’m rehashing something please :wink:

Have to say this one really pushes one of my hot buttons. I feel like a christian God gets invited into every speech. Well, I don’t follow many of Bush’s speeches, but God was big in the speech to the joint session of Congress. Please correct me if most of his major speeches do not have god as his co-pilot.

I’ve got nothing against him suggesting that people who find comfort in a higher power, whatever form that may be, call upon that diety. However, I personally find it to be proselytizing and crossing a not too fine line when he starts quoting christian scripture. I would even find it acceptable if he quoted each time from a different religion, for example from the Koran this time, The Tibetan Book of the Dead next time, etc. The US is made up of a multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious, multi-lingual (ok, that one is a bit of a stretch sometimes) melting pot, as such there is no need to call on a god of a specific religion.

It was proselytizing, but it was also appropriate. Dubya was calling upon words many people recognise (if only from rap lyrics) and take comfort from as holy words. Hopefully one day an American politician will be savvy enough to quote from the Qu’ran in a major speech.

As long as it says “In God We Trust” on all the money, I don’t see the problem.

I don’t like the fact that we swear our oaths on a bible in the courtroom. I mean, I’m not religious. I could throw a million bibles into a bonfire and it wouldn’t mean a thing to me- yet it’s assumed that if I swear on a bible I’ll tell the truth so help me god? Umm, no. The only reason I’d tell the truth in a courtroom is a respect for the legal process; not because I’m afraid god will smiteth me if I don’t or because I hold any sort of respect for the bible (which I don’t).

Why don’t we swear on the constitution instead? I’d think that would be much more appropriate.

P.S. I have no problem with Bush trying to comfort the masses, but he shouldn’t only comfort the christian masses. Methinks it would have been in good taste to have said a short hebrew prayer or something… just to balance things out.

Sorry, troops. I think there’s no regular here that doesn’t know that I find mixing of church and state as reprehensible as does any atheist or agnostic.

But this country is founded on every citizen’s right to espouse and speak forth his own beliefs. Including George W. Bush.

It’s unfortunate that he may have chosen to use words from Psalm 23 that comforted many of us Christians (and practicing Jews? I’d assume that a KJV quote from their Scriptures would not be offensive to them, but I’ll gladly be corrected if I’m wrong), and the many citizens who may not actively believe in something supernatural but find the familiar comforting in a time of grief and trouble, but that served to alienate those of other faiths or who do not practice a faith.

In short, it may not have been the most unifying thing he could have done in that speech (which I thought was extremely well done, BTW), but was not a “violation of the separation of church and state.” What the latter consists in is compelling you to affirm your belief in something that you may or may not believe. It’s not someone affronting your sensibilities by speaking publicly what he or she believes, even if he or she holds a government job at the time. You’re compelled to do nothing except turn off the TV (or, usually, change the channel) if you don’t want to hear it.

There’s a big difference between this and beheading you for saying what you think if it doesn’t meet the official line. Sorry if that offends anyone, but the world was not created for your personal gratification. Mine neither.

Saffostarr Well I understand you and your friends wondering why why why!!! I think the answer is probably hidden in and among the patchwork of the room you were sitting in when you heard Dubya. Had you guys sat long enough and thought hard enough you would most likely have figured out the most logical reason he said this statement.

A)He’s the most powerful man on the planet right now, and he can say anything he (or his writers) want!

B)Isn’t that scripture passage kinda unilateral? I mean yes of course it comes from the Christian Bible, but hey take out the word lord and insert what you like. Whether you are a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew or Pagan you all look to a higher power to be with you during a time of need. The famous poem ‘Footsteps’ illustrates my point exactly. God (any God) will be right there with you during a time a need that translates to when you walk through the valley of the shadow of death.

Personally I would not worry about Dubya proselytizing. He is not wanting to convert anyone. I think his ramblings are unilateral and can be translated many ways. He being a devout Christian, and a Marrionette of the cabinet, wants people to feel safe and taken care of. Granted, I do not think Americans on a whole feel completely safe, but I do think we feel united and strong. And if Bushy is going to be our spearhead our icon then what he says is going to have to be quite unilateral so the point can go out to many religions and many cultures.

I am listening to Bush and Putin in the back round right now, they are talking at a highschool. There has been no mention of God. I just can’t believe it…Russia and America…Buddies. HA!

It annoys me, but so does having “one nation, under god” shoehorned onto the Pledge of Allegiance.

I just figure George W. Bush doesn’t speak for me – never has, and probably never will.

saffostarr, I do have to point out a few things. “Freedom of religion” is one of our first amendment rights. “Freedom FROM religion” is not listed. As Polycarp said, Bush is free to say anything he likes.

Secondly, and a bit off topic, I’d like to comment on your “needing to drag religion into it” comment. I have a feeling that religion didn’t put up much of a fight to have the spotlight at such a time. As a christian I would have done the same thing - not as proselytizing, but as the highest form of comfort that I know.

Okay, here come my responses. Thanks to everyone who’s posted so far.

China Guy sums up my feelings on the subject nicely, and that’s pretty much what I would say in response to Phlosphr. I believe that the necessity for spirituality could have been addressed without needing to quote Scripture. Phlosphr, I didn’t mean to accuse Dubya of trying to convert anyone; that wasn’t what I took offence to.

Again, I think China Guy put it nicely. It’s not unilateral, IMHO. It’s a passage from a holy book that is not holy to everyone. If Bush wanted to call to spirituality he could have done so in more generic terms. Quoting the Bible is, IMHO, not generic.

Polycarp, I also thought Bush’s speech was very well done until he quoted Scripture, which rather took the wind out of my sails, so to speak. Thank you for your very well-reasoned response; I agree with all of your points.

Munch, as for my comment about “dragging religion into it,” you are right, spirituality was certainly in the forefront of many people’s minds, but I do not feel that his speech needed to be explicitly religious in order to acknowledge the need for faith in the current atmosphere. I do understand what you mean by quoting the Bible to be “the highest form of comfort that you know,” but I feel that Bush needed to consider his words not only as a Christian, but as the President of a country that has people of many, many faiths. In that capacity, I feel that he should have attempted to keep his comforting on a more secular level.

In the light of several of these responses, I’d like to retract my comments about the separation of church and state and freedom of religion. The points made about this particular instance having to do with neither of those are absolutely correct. However, I intended this particular incident to be expanded into a discussion of religion in government in general, such as swearing on the Bible in court (as mentioned by NightRabbit) and “one nation, under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance (as mentioned by rjung). Perhaps I ought to open up another thread for that discussion?

I should hope not - ain’t you Irish? [sub]Please forgive me if I’ve completed confused you with another Doper[/sub]

Overall, and much as it pains me as an atheist, Polycarp is dead on (as usual). This is sorta the same grief Lieberman was getting during the campaign - but I see it as truth in advertising. Dubya declared to all and sundry during the campaign he was born-again, so we knew what we were getting into when we elected him (please, no Florida comments).

Sua

Bush should be able to say whatever he wants as George W. Bush, but when he speaks as President of the United States, he represents the whole country. And speaking for the whole country, he needs to use generic religion-speak, cover all the religions (impossible) or no religion at all.

He can use comforting words instead of religious comforting words. Other Presidents have.

I would prefer separation of church and state, myself. Leave it out, W.

You don’t HAVE to swear on a Bible. Didn’t Cecil do a column on this?
:rolleyes:

I haven’t heard anybody say that Bush doesn’t have the right to push his christian dogma. The question is whether or not it is appropriate for him to do so, in his capacity as president of the United States.

And obviously there can be no freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

I don’t think it’s appropriate. If you include one religion, you should include the other ones so that those non-christian people feel comfortable too. Either he includes all of them, or none of them. The same should go for every other legal document. That’s why i dont say “under god” when i do the Pledge of Allegiance. If i ever do the Pledge of Allegiance in front of a bunch of people, i’ll probably say “under buddah” instead of the “under god.” Geez that would be fun.

And why on earth not? How does being exposed religion force you to adopt religion? I guess I must be terribly slow, but I really don’t see this at all.
Personally, I have to say that I agree with Poly. Bush has every right to invoke his religion, and I’m not really convinced it’s inappropriate to use words from the Bible in doing so.

After all, whether you like it or not, Christianity is still deeply ingrained in our culture, and Psalm 23 has got to be one of the better known parts of the Bible out there. I have to imagine that it does speak to the great majority of Americans (and probably to many who aren’t Christian or Jewish or Muslim), and given that, I don’t really see any problem with it. Obviously, some of y’all disagree, but to me, it seems like an argument could probably be made that it’s as much harking back to our cultural heritage as it is trying to provide comfort in a specifically Judeo-Christian manner (and I’ll note in passing that I don’t see how providing comfort in said manner equates to pushing any specific religious dogma ion the first place). YMMV.

You my be confusing rjung for Ruadh. BTW, you would still be in error, as she hails form the State of Maryland, but lives in Dublin :wink:

Religion has a big impact on people’s value systems.

Government is supposed to represent the people.

Ergo, there is religion in government.

Deal with it.

You can be assured that we as a nation took into account George Bush’s religous nature when we gave him the presidency. Frankly, that was one reason I voted for him over Gore.

From my perspective, I expected more of him. He should have declared a national day of prayer and mourning immediately after Sept 11. I think that would have really brought us as a nation together. The idea that he quoted scripture is pretty innocuous… maybe even wishy-washy.

Now if he were to start mandating that everyone attend Sunday church services at the nearest Presbyterian (or whatever he is) church, we’d all vote him out.

But, as a conclusion: The Christian values have a dramatic impact in who I am and how I interact with the world. I refuse to have my beliefs marginalized just because some athiests insist that the constitution gives them special rights.

What about the beliefs of atheists? What if they feel that their rights are being marginalised? Do their beliefs not get taken into consideration because they’re not in the majority religion? If someone on this board said:

you’d be pretty upset, wouldn’t you? I’d imagine the atheists feel the same way about your comment (this former atheist certainly does). This country does not have a national religion; as such I see no reason at all why the majority religion and its adherents ought to be the only religious things respected in this country. I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding your point, but that seems to be the essence of what you’re saying: Christianity is the majority religion, so the rest of us can suck it up. Sorry, but I think that’s wrong.