In this thread in GQ, the issue was raised whether a business has a right to display religious matter on various of its materials. There have been comments that any business so doing is simply exercising rights of free speech, while there have also been those who suggest that a business has an obligation to warn the consumer in advance or should not even be engaging in that activity in the first place.
I propose that every business has a right to display anything on its merchandise, bags, signs or any other item that it provides to the consumer without having to point out such potentially offensive material, unless such display is genuinely illegal. The example of Alaska Airlines handing out some kind of card with a religious reference is therefore completely permissible. Chefguy has suggested that this is completely out of bounds for Alaska Airlines, as they are the only regular flights in Alaska that suit his schedule. My view is that just because they currently offer the most flexible flight service, this does not forbid them from engaging in whatever business model they wish, including religious proselytizing. There may be some issue to be taken if they are granted a legal monopoly by some legislative body, but in this case, it is simply being determined by the market.
I wonder what Chefguy and others who agree with his point of view would have to say of the retail chain, FCUK. It would be very difficult to convince me that this moniker was not constructed simply to play on the dreaded ‘F’ word. This company’s signs, bags, and advertising may well be offensive to people like my 70+ mother, yet I suspect most of those who would advocate that Alaska Air and others should not put religious materials onto their products would not support the proposition that FCUK should not be using a potentially offensive name.
I couldn’t be described as a particularly religious person and don’t support the use of religious proselytizing on the basis of my belief in a higher power or “one right religion”. To me, it is simply a matter of a business owner having a choice of how they wish to conduct their business. In my mind, Alaska Air’s use of the card with the religious reference and Forever 21’s use of the “John 3:16” reference is no different than a shop owner choosing to hang a cross on their wall, play Christian rock in the store, or anything else that could be considered to have religious connotations.
If I buy a product, I pay for the produc and I want the product and no hidden religious proselytizing coming with it or even engraved on it invisible at first view.
If I buy a product, I want to be able to import that into any country I wish to go to without putting myself at risk, being unaware that it forms a risk because of the arrogance of the producer to use the proudct I payed for as a vehicle for his religious convictions.
If someone hides for example Bible references on products, on the packages, brings them in my possesion in no matter which way while I am unaware of this, they bring my life in danger when I enter certain countries.
Nobody has the right to bring my life in danger, anywhere.
Final.
That’s also a good reason not to go to the sort of country that is intolerant and dismissive of human rights enough to execute people who bring in religious references.
Aldebaran, do you have any actual instances of someone’s life being put in danger, say, by transporting a shopping bag with the words “John 3:16” printed on it? Whether into a non-Christian country, or just walking down the street, or anything?
And, do you have any actual instances of religions other than Christians putting scripture of any kinds on shopping bags, place mats, etc., in an effort to proselytize? And of those scriptures putting someone’s life in danger, because he happens to be carrying, say, a shopping bag that says, “La ilaha illa 'llahu” on it?
Because otherwise your position is pretty abstract, seems to me. You’re thundering against people putting your life in danger with their scriptures, when it looks to me like that’s not even a possibility. I understand your objection to putting Bible verses on shopping bags, but I think maybe you should look around for a better reason than, “they’re putting my life in danger!”
Then you need to examine the product prior to purchase to ensure it meets your standards.
See response above.
“They” do not bring your life into danger. The government that would kill you for that is what brings your life into danger. The other responsible party might be you. If you are going to a country that will kill you for a “Jesus Saves” fanny pack, then it’s up to you to know what you’re buying. It’s not the responsibility of every vendor to thumb through the “Big Book of Intolerant Countries Who Kill People with Religious Messages on Products”.
Of the examples thus far given in the other thread (Forever 21 & Alaska Airlines), neither is “hidden”. The language on Forever 21’s bag may well be discrete, but I wouldn’t deem it to be “hidden”.
It is not up to a merchant to determine every possible law in every possible country that it’s goods may be in breach of.
Again, it’s not the merchant’s obligation to ensure that its products or packaging are not in breach of all laws in all countries. If you choose to enter a country that is so strict as to threaten your life for the possession of certain written materials, you’d best make darn sure that you yourself are in compliance with their laws by carefully inspecting anything that you wish to carry with you.
No it is not, you only try to turn the argument around which isn’t coming across as very honest.
You try to push your views on society on other ones, as most Westerners like to do.
I have the right to go where I need and want to go without
having anything pushed onto me that could bring me in danger because I don’t even know it is pushed onto me.
And yes, people could face problems when entering my country with such items.
Do you say I shouldn’t return home again after visiting the USA and spending money there, with this in fact investing in their economy?
Do you say citizens of the USA have the right to bring me in danger because of their incredible arrogance that urges them to proselytize no matter how and no matter at whom’s cost?
Sorry, but if I ever would find such an item, it wouldn’t be that person’s best day and I would do everything to ruin him, just to amuse me with doing that.
I don’t permit someone try to murder me or people who are with me, or bring us in any other sort of danger.
That is my right.
Thank you for understanding.
I’m sorry, but anything that isn’t visible when you purchase an item is “hidden” and I don’t need to examine everything I buy on such hidden messages. Especially since I buy a product that has nothing to do with those messages.
If a producer announces on forenhand he puts such messages on products or their package, then I am informed.
If a retailer informes me about it, then I am informed.
If the advertizing informs about it, then I am supposed to be informed
If I can see it very clearly when buyng the product, then I am supposed to be informed.
All the rest is bringin me in a position that I am not informed and can’t be informed, since I buy a product that has no relation with those hidden messages at all.
If I buy a Bible, I know I buy a Bible, no?
If I give my suits and shirts or whatever to the laundry of my hotel, and it comes back with hidden Bible quotes in pockets, I am not informed.
So in people’s opinion here, I should examine everything everywhere for hidden Bible quotes when I’m in the USA and pruchase no matter what overthere?
Thank you, but no way. It is my right as a custumor to be spared of such unwanted proselytizing, which can even bring me in danger.
Salaam. A
It is not up to a merchant to determine every possible law in every possible country that it’s goods may be in breach of.
Again, it’s not the merchant’s obligation to ensure that its products or packaging are not in breach of all laws in all countries. If you choose to enter a country that is so strict as to threaten your life for the possession of certain written materials, you’d best make darn sure that you yourself are in compliance with their laws by carefully inspecting anything that you wish to carry with you. **
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I agree. I’ve never shopped at a “Forever 21” store, and I’m not sure I know exactly the type of merchandise they carry (and I may be getting it mixed up with “Rue 21”), but if you’re shopping at that type of store, I doubt you’d be wearing their clothes in the same type of country that would kill you outright for having a shopping bag with a Bible verse printed on it, right?
I’m sorry, but anything that isn’t visible when you purchase an item is “hidden” and I don’t need to examine everything I buy on such hidden messages. Especially since I buy a product that has nothing to do with those messages.
If a producer announces on forenhand he puts such messages on products or their package, then I am informed.
If a retailer informes me about it, then I am informed.
If the advertizing informs about it, then I am supposed to be informed
If I can see it very clearly when buyng the product, then I am supposed to be informed.
All the rest is bringin me in a position that I am not informed and can’t be informed, since I buy a product that has no relation with those hidden messages at all.
If I buy a Bible, I know I buy a Bible, no?
If I give my suits and shirts or whatever to the laundry of my hotel, and it comes back with hidden Bible quotes in pockets, I am not informed.
So in people’s opinion here, I should examine everything everywhere for hidden Bible quotes when I’m in the USA and pruchase no matter what overthere?
Thank you, but no way. It is my right as a custumor to be spared of such unwanted proselytizing, which can even bring me in danger.
It is even now for the first time that I have ever heard of the possibility that such items can be pushed onto me when I 'm in the USA.
Do you think everyone who comes to the USA must be aware of this? If yes, then why don’t you advertize it on airports and harbors in great flashing letters.
That way I would have been informed since the very first time I set foot on US soil, no?
Salaam. A
You once again try to twist the argument by pushing your standards onto other nations.
I say that those who psh unwanted and unknown proselytizing material onto me , and those who find such arrogant irresponsible practices completely normal,have no notice of human rights at all.
They want to proselytize at all costs.
And then you wonder why such arrogant lunatics are not wanted in so many natikons? They stand for nothing to reach their goald. That is why.
First, I’m not trying to push views on you. Second, I’d argue that the government that executes somebody for an unapproved message probably ranks a wee bit higher on the “trying to push views on society” scale than I do.
I’ll second Duck Duck Goose’s request for you to show me if such a thing has ever happened. Even if it has, you are responsible for your safety when going to such a nation. If the authorities could find it, so could you. Look at what you’re bringing into the country. It’s not difficult.
I don’t know if this is addressed to me or to the strawman. Buying US goods is great and all, but as a bit of personal advice you shouldn’t buy stuff that will get you executed. And, as an aside, I think the US economy could survive the loss of purchases of bags with religious messages by people going to countries that will kill them for having it.
No, I’m saying your view of who is endangering you is wrong. And attempting to shift the burden for your personal safety is also wrong. A merchant sells goods. If you buy that good, you are agreeing to take it as it is. That’s the end of the merchant’s responsibility for messages appearing on its goods.
An excellent philosophy. Totally unrelated to a John 3:16 bag of course. But an excellent philosophy nonetheless.
Perhaps it’s the countries that kill people for having religious slogans on their personal effects that need to have the great big signs at the airports and harbors.
Aldebaran, you certainly are good at turning what is essentially the discussion of a company’s rights to print whatever they wish on their materials into a discussion of imperialism.
However, you seem to ignore the fact that these products are not being exported to your country and you are not being forced to purchase them. You also seem to have the desire for all citizens of other countries to be responsible for your personal well-being.
So far, the examples given are products that are offered within North America, for consumption within North America. If a country in which you do not reside has standards which differ from your own, caveat emptor. Nobody has any obligation to ensure that any product meets the standards of your own home country, including the lack of religious messages, except for you.
Then it’s your country that’s the problem, and not the products. Again, no company is under any obligation to makes sure that all of their products are allowable in every country. As the buyer, it is your responsibility to ensure that your purchases comply with your own country’s laws.
It’s your own country that’s putting you in danger. Also, when you buy something here, we have no way of knowing that you plan to take the product to a country where it may cause problems. It is your responsibility to know what is and is not allowed, and to fully inspect the products you buy to make sure that they comply with your own country’s laws.
I guess you must really hate your own country, then, since it is putting you in danger.
I would rather businesses put their religious/political affiliations right upfront on their products! That way, I know whom I’m supporting with my money and can make up my mind whether or not to patronize them.
Incidentally, as to the actual topic of the thread: Yes, I think companies have the right to place religious or proselytizing slogans on their merchandise, in the sense that I certainly wouldn’t support a law banning the practice. I also have the right to not patronize those businesses. Whether they ought to do so is another question. For one thing, the person making the decision to identify the business with a particular religious stance needs to not only control but also own the business; if the owners and managers are separate people (as is often the case), they need to agree beforehand. What a sole proprietor of a small business can do is different from what the manager of an enterprise where ownership is widely distributed can do. I suspect that in the cases described the businesses are all pretty closely held and all the owners and managers are happy with the situation, but a manager of a business doesn’t have the right to drag a bunch of stockholders with differing religious views (and who may just own the stock in order to make money) into a big religious controversy. Also, identifying your business with some particular religion may or may not be a prudent thing to do. Whether or not the increased business from people who agree with you making a special point of patronizing you makes up for the people who disagree with you refusing to do business with you will probably depend on just where you are and what kind of business you’re in. In some cases, if the disconnect between “witnessing for the LORD” and “good business model” becomes too great, you might want to consider if you’re really in the right business at all, or if you should perhaps consider selling the business and becoming a full-time missionary or something.