You keep ignoring the people here who say that the ubiquitous images of Christmas still represent Christianity, even if many people have separated out much of the religious nature from the objects. To someone steeped in Christianity they might not notice it, but to those who are not the connection remains.
Your experience being limited/constrained is kind of why this thread exists.
It happens, I have personal experience with members of each of those beliefs having Christmas trees and exchanging presents.
OK, I’m going to just stop responding to you for the rest of this thread, because I can only assume repeating this absolute bullshit statement, that I’ve repeatedly denied, is just deliberate provocation now.
Again - not me. I’m no more steeped in Christianity than any American Jew is.
I know individual Jews or Muslims or Atheists who celebrate Christmas too. But they are the exception, not the rule, and none of them are under the illusion that they are not celebrating a Christian holiday when they do so.
I get it, you’re not Christian. You are certainly arguing from the “Christianity is the dominant culture and that’s the way things should be” perspective of Cultural Christianity though.
Do you have any competing heritage to give you perspective?
What exactly is your own religious background? You’ve repeatedly said you’re not Christian, so what are you? If you’re a non-religious person whose ancestors were Christian, it’s accurate and non-insulting to say you’re “culturally Christian”.
(Assuming that that is the case) you’re part of the majority culture. To claim that simply rejecting Christian theology in favor of secularism means that your relationship with Christianity is the same as that of a Jew is ridiculous. It really does seem analogous to American white people who think that because they don’t hold explicitly racist views, they’ve done their part and don’t need to ever think about things like structural racism.
Does this layer of “competing heritage” inoculate you from the steeping in some fashion? How does that work?
And yes, I have a “competing heritage”, I was raised a committed atheist. Although that didn’t stop me from being baptized for a lark.
Some of my ancestors were Christian, some were Muslim, some were Hindu. My own family was none of the above - we were committed atheists, of a Marxist bent, for at least 3 generations.
My broader neighbourhood, growing up, was about as Muslim as it was Christian, with my school being more Muslim than that.
It is insulting to keep insisting on it when I’ve repeatedly denied it, I’m no more “Culturally Christian” than any of my Jewish interlocutors.
And if that were my claim, it would be. But that was not my claim.
And this is all getting way too personal - I haven’t interrogated anyone’s claim to Jewishness, but here we are… tell me how this is all supposed to a good faith argument?
Yes, you will see a Christmas tree in most churches during Advent Season. Though the ornaments are more Christ centers (and referred to as Chrismons). Lights of course would be strewn and for many churches thrown on during the Christmas Eve service as a reminder of Jesus being the light of the world.
I’m sorry, it certainly wasn’t my intent to get personal. I was simply curious about the background that produced your perspective. I did preface the remarks you quote with “assuming that is the case”. I agree that embracing Marxist ideology is different from simply drifting away from religion over the course of a few generations.
Again, without meaning to be in any way offensive, I find your experiences highly unusual. Perhaps it’s a South African thing. In America I can’t imagine anyone identifying as a “committed atheist” deciding to have her child baptized “on a lark”. Someone who’s just ordinarily non-religious might do so, or an atheist might do so to accommodate the sensibilities of family, but that combination of phrases just doesn’t go together in my experience.
I spoke excellent English before I studied any other languages. But while I “executed” English grammar correctly, I didn’t really understand the rules. Studying another language gave me a very different perspective of English, and I have understood English grammar much better since studying other languages.
Over a millennium and half of oppressions of Jews by Christians didn’t disappear with a snap of the fingers. Some Jews aren’t going to give in to their conversion attempts, no matter how many coats of tinsel they put on them.
Let’s put it another way: if the only people who observed Christmas were atheists, I’d have no problem with it. But that’s not the case.
So are you saying the Jews who do celebrate Christmas are … converts? Apostates? Not really Jewish?
Certainly something along those lines, yes. IMO, celebrating Christmas is incompatible with being Jewish. Acknowledging it, admiring the trappings, singing along with I’m Dreaming of a White Christmas, those aren’t the same as putting up a tree in your home and setting up Santas on your lawn.
I’m sure many Jews would disagree with me, but you ask 2 Jews you’ll get 3 opinions. For many Jews, I would suggest that indeed this is the prevailing opinion. My sister-in-law, who has a tree in her Alabama home in December, obviously disagrees with me.
Ok, I think have a better idea of where you’re coming from. It’s some kind of … purity test?.. that Christmas-celebrating Jews have apparently failed.
That stuck out to me as well. Never in a million years would I imagine an atheist having their kid baptized for fun. For one, it’s a very explicitly Christian ritual.
It’s kind of a definitional thing. Jews don’t celebrate the divinity of Christ.
“Everyone else is doing it, why don’t we?” was more-or-less what I was told the thinking was. My Mom is no longer around to ask for clarification. It was definitely my Mom, not my Dad.