Reparations are never going to happen so why do some democrats come out in favor of them...

[iiandyiiii]

@Bone

This is actually a terrible metaphor unless what you’re discussing is criminal in nature. Certainly if there are alleged crimes being committed then those resources tasked with investigating should do so. But here we’re not talking about crimes. We’re not talking about atrocities of the past, right? We’re talking about any lingering effects of those practices and policies and current actions.

Based on what you’ve presented, this studying approach, I think is ill conceived. Without more parameters, it looks like an avenue to continually grow and expand the scope such that when one avenue doesn’t produce intended results, then the approach would be to devote more time, resources, and money. It’s like a process designed to be a never ending rabbit hole.

In many cases, I’m thinking of actions that would be crimes now, or ought to be crimes now, but weren’t when they occurred. Redlining is illegal now. So are many of the other events I’m alluding to.

Also, this overall case is special, and should be treated as special. If normal processes could fix and provide justice for all that has occurred, than black Americans (and Native Americans) would be just as likely to feel that they are fully invested members of our society as any other group. Unless one is inclined to believe that there is something inherently wrong with black Americans, which I fully admit is a common, if reprehensible, belief.

[asahi]

@Babale

I don’t think reparations should come in the form of checks cut out to random black people based on what percentage of their ancestors were black. That’s ridiculous, to me. But what we can do, as a society, is take a look at how the black communities within our societies have been harmed by slavery, racism, discriminatory laws, etc., and spend that money to fix those problems. And we should call it reparations, because it’s important for the healing of this nation that we point out that yes, we WRONGED the black members of our society, and have continued doing so until the present, and in fact in many ways are continuing to do so. And yes, non-blacks will benefit from these policies too. All the better, but we need to focus on the racism so that we push our culture as far away from that as we can.

This is pretty much what I’m saying.

Obviously we’re not talking about 40 acres and a mule or its equivalent in today’s dollars for each and every individual who might have some enslaved ancestors. It’s simply a collective acknowledgment in earnest that black Americans, as a class, have been victimized in ways that are unique, which isn’t to deny suffering or minimize sustained by other groups. In concrete terms, I’d like to see governments at the state and federal levels really work to address the issues caused by systemic racism. We’re nowhere near doing that now.

[k9bfriender]

@gmeyers1944

The only realistic answer to this problem is to take the advice of Chief Justice John Roberts, " The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race".

Okay, if I stop doing that, how does that stop you from discriminating? How does that address the harm that befalls someone because of discrimination that is done by people who are not you.

You can only control you, and following that advice will have an effect on exactly one person.

Unless you can think of a way to force every single person to follow that advice, it is worse than worthless, as it means that any factors towards a minority can only be negative.

@Shodan

We need to identify the actual living individuals that have been harmed. That’s what was being discussed.

Actually that’s the easy part. We can easily see people who are disadvantaged due to generational racial discrimination.

That’s how we do it now, except the part you forgot - the part where we identify the actual person or persons who did the harm.

That’s not the part that I forgot. That’s the part that I went into a fair amount of detail on.

Now, that is the part that you chose not to quote and respond to, but if you call when you ignore a part of my post is as forgetting it, then there really is no chance for any sort of productive conversation here.

Can you go back to the part that you chose to cut out and claim I did not post, and actually answer the question of which company’s smokestack is to blame for your child’s respiratory issues?

Or you can continue to ignore things that are hard for you to answer, but that really is just admitting that you have lost.

Or they say they haven’t done any of the harm. In the US, we generally don’t punish people unless we first show that they did something illegal.

What is your obsession with punishment? this is not about punishment. That you want to make it about [punishment means that you want to frame how discrimination against minorities has affected you, rather than how it has affected those who are actually discriminated against.

Stop thinking of it as punishment, as that will continue to lead you to rather useless and unproductive conclusions.

Sure - after the damage has been demonstrated.

Look at the disparities in the outcomes, and you see that damage has been done. you have to be willfully ignoring the effects of discrimination both historical and contemporary and have your head in the sand not to see that the damage has been amply demonstrated.

No, it isn’t.

I can see, from how your perspective that no one deserves to be made whole for damages done by society, and any form of making while involves punishing someone else, that that may even be the case.

Who are you making responsible for proving that the crime has been committed, and who exactly committed it? The victims, correct? So, how is that not making the victims responsible?

We are not talking about a criminal case. This is more of a civil suit.

What makes you make that decision? There were crimes perpetuated against minorities, not just torts.

Nope - that’s ridiculous.

Glad you agreed that that is not what I said and have taken back your claim.

[k9bfriender]

@Bone

What you describe isn’t systemic discrimination.

No, what I describe is an example of what happens in an environment where you have systemic discrimination.

As to which employers would be guilty of discriminating? All of them in your example and all should be held to account.

How do we do that? How does this guy prove that he was passed over, in each and every one of these cases, for discriminatory reasons?

Maybe 6 of them were racists, but 4 of them just evaluated things a bit differently. Nepotism isn’t racism, so if I hire my white nephew over a more qualified black man, that may look like racial discrimination, but it’s not, and is actually perfectly legal.

We have a system in place to do this already. If you’re suggesting that the EEOC and others should be given more authority or latitude, then that’s a real proposal. But that’s not reparations either.

In order for them to have the latitude necessary to make people whole who have been harmed, they will have to have the latitude to punish people and organizations with very little evidence. Better, I would think, for the cost of helping those harmed by that systemic discrimination to be paid for by society in general, rather than trying to find scapegoats to blame. (who will almost certainly not have the resources to make them whole.)

[Ambivalid]

@iiandyiiii

I think we should do some very in depth research, to a level that’s never been done on a large scale before. You can feel free to disagree, though I don’t know why some find the prospect of such research so scary.

What does this mean? The devil is in the detail. What form of “very in depth” research would effectively identify ever black person eligible for reparations? It’s easy to say the things you’re saying, without any specifics that could possibly ground the ideas to reality.

[Kearsen1]

@k9bfriender

Like I said earlier, it is silly to try to make one person to be to blame for systemic discrimination.

If you are a black man, and you are turned down for 10 jobs in favor of a white man with the same or lesser qualifications, which of those employers discriminate against you? Which of them should be held to account?

If multiple people each contribute to a bit of the harm, how do you justify calling just one of them out to be held accountable?

Hint: The one you can prove discriminated against you.

How are you going to offer them reparations?

[Kearsen1]

This entire proposal can be summed up as thus:

Outcomes have been different, different than we’d like. Why?
Discrimination!
How?

Well, we don’t really know but outcomes , outcomes are different.

Outcomes across the board will ALWAYS be different. Race based programs is discrimination. We should ditch them. ALL of them. And start living a colorless life.
Help those that need help, provide a safety net sufficient to you.
But trying to get the same outcomes for people across the board is not logical.

**Asahi **“black welfare” should be illegal. "Welfare, of course, should not.

[k9bfriender]

@Kearsen1

Hint: The one you can prove discriminated against you.

Okay, so, as proving discrimination is a very hard task to do, especially to ask someone who is already marginalized by the systemic discrimination that is still ongoing, that is essentially just a cop out, and a statement that there is nothing that we are willing to do.

How are you going to offer them reparations?

Well, I personally see going about it entirely differently than offering reparations to particular groups, in that I prefer the idea that we just give everyone a solid safety net, access to education and healthcare, knowledge about and access to nutritious meals, and essentially ensuring that everyone has access to take advantage of the same opportunities. A cash payout would be the last and least of my way of making up for the ways that we have failed out fellow citizens for generations.

Though, as I said previously, stopping doing of harm would be a great start.

[k9bfriender]

@Kearsen1

This entire proposal can be summed up as thus:

Outcomes have been different, different than we’d like. Why?
Discrimination!
How?

Well, we don’t really know but outcomes , outcomes are different.

That’s a pretty terrible summary, and serves to ignore pretty much everything that anyone has actually said.

We have said why outcomes are different, because the opportunities are different.

If two people have different outcomes, then you can’t really say much about that, there is much luck and stuff involved on an individual level.

However, if two different groups of people have substantially different outcomes, then you have to acknowledge that those two different groups of people are being offered differing opportunities.

Outcomes across the board will ALWAYS be different. Race based programs is discrimination. We should ditch them. ALL of them. And start living a colorless life.

Once you solve racism, and there is no one at all judging someone by the color of their skin, and you can show that the outcome for a black person is statistically indistinguishable from that of a white person, then I’ll agree with that ideal.

Unfortunately, as long as racists exist to prevent minorities from having access to these opportunities, we have to be aware of the disparate effects.

Help those that need help, provide a safety net sufficient to you.
But trying to get the same outcomes for people across the board is not logical.

No, it is not, but seeing widely diverging outcomes should indicate that there is a problem with the opportunities. That should be addressed, and those who were not given the opportunities should be made whole.

[asahi]

@Kearsen1

This entire proposal can be summed up as thus:

Outcomes have been different, different than we’d like. Why?
Discrimination!
How?

Well, we don’t really know but outcomes , outcomes are different.

Outcomes across the board will ALWAYS be different. Race based programs is discrimination. We should ditch them. ALL of them. And start living a colorless life.
Help those that need help, provide a safety net sufficient to you.
But trying to get the same outcomes for people across the board is not logical.

**Asahi **“black welfare” should be illegal. "Welfare, of course, should not.

You offer a position but no evidence.

[Bone]

@k9bfriender

No, what I describe is an example of what happens in an environment where you have systemic discrimination.

Perhaps, but that’s not what you said. The example you gave is not systemic discrimination. If you use words in non-standard ways I guess things can mean whatever you want.

[Babale]

I’ve never seen someone erect a straw man this quickly, nor brag this much about cleaving it in twain.

Edit: that was directed at Kearsen, not Bone.

[k9bfriender]

@Bone

Perhaps, but that’s not what you said. The example you gave is not systemic discrimination. If you use words in non-standard ways I guess things can mean whatever you want.

I have no idea what you are going on about here. I did not use any word in any non-standard ways. I made an example of something that happens due to systemic discrimination, I never said that it was the definition of systemic discrimination or whatever type of straw you are trying to shove into my mouth here.

You claims as to what I said are inaccurate, and your criticisms are invalid.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@asahi

Of course change is possible, but change without meaningful, concrete redress isn’t sufficient.

legal redress for those harmed specifically is exactly the right way to go.

Real progress is when we acknowledge the reality that communities of certain people are now socially, economically, and politically disadvantaged relative to other races because they’ve been treated differently and not given the same opportunities.

oh absolutely, the real change then comes from making sure that they are now treated equally and are given the same opportunities. I do not see where cash payouts help at all in any of that.

I disagree. Change happens when people are confronted with the reality of their prejudices and shown the consequences that they have. Change happens when you stop worrying about the optics and anxieties of people who are afraid of causing a disturbance and instead confront them with the truth about how simply and utterly wrong society is. Slavery didn’t end because the needle moved; it ended because people confronted it as a moral sin. Jim Crow and lynching didn’t end because of a moved needle; it moved because Americans saw the decomposed body of Emmett Till in a coffin. It moved because brave people refused to accept being second class citizens and the rest of America was forced to confront the ugliness of white supremacy and American apartheid turning powerful fire hoses on people who were peacefully marching, and hanging them in trees for voting.

I don’t see anything in your response that suggests we disagree on any of this. The metaphorical “needle” I refer to is a measure of the societal repugnance of racism and inequality and appetite for change. The very things you mention move that needle. It is a response to and indicator of societal changes not a causal factor of them.

Agreed - money by itself is pointless. I wouldn’t know what the correct formula for redressing the economic disparities other than reversing the trend of economic austerity in poor, mostly black communities. To be sure, this austerity hits the economically disadvantaged in other communities as well, but what there is literature available online that describes how there has been discrimination even when it comes to aid programs. The worst forms of social assistance discrimination was probably cleaned up in the 1960s and 70s, but now lawmakers in states with a history of discrimination - and even those without it - run campaigns on eliminating black welfare.

Again, I see acres of common ground here. I think money spent on all the above is a better and longer-lasting investment than anything spent on financial reparations to individuals. A wide-ranging program of this, equally and fairly applied would target those most in need. I see no reason why race would even need to be a factor in it. Other metrics are available to identify those communities and so the money goes where it is most needed. 80% black and 20% white, 50% black 50% white…who cares as long it it is transparent, fairly targeted and leads to improvements.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@k9bfriender

However, if two different groups of people have substantially different outcomes, then you have to acknowledge that those two different groups of people are being offered differing opportunities.

I think that is a very narrow view of things. There may be other reasons why one group may not take up the opportunities on offer even when those opportunities are exactly the same as for everyone else.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that equality of opportunity should lead to equality of outcome and it is not a given that any inequality of outcome indicates an inequality of opportunity on offer.

It may be, but I challenge your assertion above that it must be.

[DrDeth]

@k9bfriender

That’s a pretty terrible summary, and serves to ignore pretty much everything that anyone has actually said.

We have said why outcomes are different, because the opportunities are different.

If two people have different outcomes, then you can’t really say much about that, there is much luck and stuff involved on an individual level.

However, if two different groups of people have substantially different outcomes, then you have to acknowledge that those two different groups of people are being offered differing opportunities.

In that case, we also have to give reparations to :

women
Senior citizens
Gays.
Asians
Mexicans
Native Americans
and so forth

do you not see how silly this will become?

[iiandyiiii]

@Ambivalid

What does this mean? The devil is in the detail. What form of “very in depth” research would effectively identify ever black person eligible for reparations? It’s easy to say the things you’re saying, without any specifics that could possibly ground the ideas to reality.

We could start broad and narrow until we hit impassable roadblocks. For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living black Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry? That’s a good project. I’m sure we know many of them, but do we know all of them? Big project, certainly. It would take an awful lot of work. Okay, next we can look to see who they harmed. Not to the point of names, but regions, ages, professions, education levels, etc. – what the statistics say about who was harmed. At that point we can consider shifting over to how they were harmed – how much richer today would those folks be if they hadn’t suffered that harm? What was taken from them? And/or we can dig more into the “who” – drill down until we have actual names. Thousands and thousands of names, very possibly… kind of like how Holocaust researchers have determined literally millions of names of Holocaust victims with nothing more than hard research work. The idea that this would be impossible is proven false by the fact that this has been done before, with literally millions of individual names of victims. I’m sure there would be difficulties and challenges and maybe even some impassable roadblocks… but I don’t accept that we should give up now just because some white people think it would be really hard.

I’ll just note that all of this so far (in this thread) is just ideas from my head. I haven’t done any hard work in this. At this point, I’ll be ecstatic if folks just start to consider that maybe this isn’t a wackadoodle batshit nonsense idea. Maybe it’s just wackadoodle now (I slayed the batshit nonsense!), and later someone will come along who’s a lot smarter than I am, with much better ideas and a much better way to communicate them. I’m sure there are already better ideas and better communicators out there, and I hope to one day come across them for the cites.

[DrDeth]

@iiandyiiii

We could start broad and narrow until we hit impassable roadblocks. For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living black Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry? That’s a good project… At this point, I’ll be ecstatic if folks just start to consider that maybe this isn’t a wackadoodle batshit nonsense idea. …

For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Female Americans due to various forms of sexismand bigotry?
For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Native Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry?
For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Hispanic Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry?
For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Gay or LGBT Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry?

And yes, it is a wackadoodle batshit nonsense idea.

[iiandyiiii]

@DrDeth

For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Female Americans due to various forms of sexismand bigotry?
For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Native Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry?
For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Hispanic Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry?
For example, what are the governmental policies and societal practices that harmed living Gay or LGBT Americans due to various forms of racism and bigotry?

Very interesting questions, and I’m glad you brought them up. Research can be hard work, but it can give us all kinds of very interesting and useful information. Thanks for putting some thought into it!

[iiandyiiii]

Thankfully for folks like me who lost relatives in the Holocaust, those Holocaust researchers actually did the hard work and found millions of individual names of victims, rather than just giving up because someone told them that trying to do that hard research would be a wackadoodle batshit nonsense idea!