Reparations for Slavery

Great Debates
1

After following the African Slave Question thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=85047
and a point brought up regarding reparations, it got me to thinking about current talk in certain quarters of the United States for reparations to African-Americans over slavery (60 Minutes re-ran a piece on this topic last week, I believe).

I’m placing this in Great Debates because I would like to hear from fellow dopers if the reparations movement has any merit. Because, while I agree in principle that the United States government does bear direct responsibility (in that it allowed slavery to exist), I can’t for the life of me see a viable way for the United States government to ever seriously consider discussion on the issue.

To me, at least, it would become a political nightmare. Even if the US government agrees that reparations are to be paid out (ignoring for the moment the costs involved), who would determine “who gets what”, so to speak? The US government? The groups asking for reparations? And (most importantly) what criteria would be used to determine “who gets what”? That is, by what basis would be people eligible for reparations? Strict documental evidence? Outward physical appearance? Genetic testing?

If anyone can come up with a viable argument for the merits of slavery reparations (and in particular determining “who gets what”), I would love to see it. Because all I see are political minefields and (horror!!) tabloid headlines like:

20 Percent of All US Reparations for Slavery Go to “Whites”

NAACP Rebukes Government on Slavery Reparations Policy - Scientists Attacked as “Racist”

15 Percent of African-Americans Denied Reparations Payments - Genetic Testing Indicates They Aren’t Really “Black”.

2

About the question whether there’s “a viable argument for the merits of slavery reparations”:
I myself believe reparations should be paid as some kind of (late) reward for what the slaves have done for the US economy. Their work helped to produce goods that were to be exported and thus brought bunches of money to the US needed to build up the country. Yet the slaves never got adequate pay for that, and I think this could be one argument to justify why reparations should be paid.
A similar argument was used in the discussion on the KZ prisoners’ reparatiosn in Germany. Big corporations of which many are still in business today refused to pay arguing they were “forced” by the Nazis to employ forced labor workers in their factories, which encludes liability to them; although the corporations do know very well they made nice profits employing KZ prisoners, some still refuse joining the reparations fund, which I think is a shame.
About the counter-argument that none of the former slaves is still alive today so noone of potential reparations recipients really was damaged by slavery I’d say the claim to get fair pay for their work is a legal claim that can, as every other claim, be passed on to a person’s heirs which then receive the money. Yet I’m not sure about expiration of claims or similar, but this can be modified through a special act if necessary.

"What criteria would be used to determine “who gets what”? "
IMHO they should use nothing but documentary evidence. I don’t know the exact plans that exist to determine recipients, but my proposal would be to state a certain sum equal for every individual, then research in archives about names and personal data of slaves and pay the money to a slave’s direct descendants. This might cause trouble among the decsendants on who gets the money, but it would IMHO be the fairest way.
Genetic testing or racial criteria are teh wrong way, I believe.

Additionally, the US should increase their development aid payments to Third World countries since those did too suffer severe damag from depopulating entire areas through slave trade.

3

What available genetic testing provides evidence of “blackness”?

4

I think the idea of reparations for slavery is an attempt to hold modern society responsible for the acts of society of 150 years ago, when not only are all the individuals different, the entire society is.

Today, slavery is illegal and generally recognized on a societal level to be immoral. Neither was true in 1850. (Which is not to say that many did not consider it immoral, or that it was not illegal in many places. But there was no societal consensus on the issue, as is generally acknowledged exists today.) I cannot for the life of me see the argument for holding people today responsible for actions that today are undeniably wrong, when those actions were arguably not “wrong” when they were done. (And I mean “wrong” on a societal level.) I realize that this smacks of moral relativism, but history is fraught with moral relativism – things that we do today would not be okay in another place or time, and things that they did then would not be okay here and now. How do you reach back through time to hold a society responsible for failing to then have the laws and beliefs we have now?

Moreover, just as many (most?) African-Americans are not descended from slaves, most European-Americans are not descended from slaveholders, or even from Southerners. Half my ancestors washed up on these shores long after the Civil War; how can their descendants be held responsible for slavery? The other half of my ancestors were here before the Civil War, but farming and building the railroad in a free state, Minnesota. How can their descendants be held responsible?

Further, I have huge problems with anyone feeling a sense of “entitlement” based on race. It seems to me to be both disempowering and divisive, and I think it is inarguably the latter in light of the fact that most non-African Americans are forcefully against the idea of reparations. If African-Americans feel they need assistance in getting a leg up in society to achieve real equality, then I think the historical disadvantages they have suffered offer a far more persuasive basis for demanding it from society than does the idea that they are “owed” something because of slavery. They are “owed” something because they are full members of our society, today, and if they do not get their due as such, then they have every right to demand it. But this argument is based on what they are owed now and in their own right, not what they are owed because of who their ancestors are and what they suffered.

This is all in addition to and beside the point that it would be a nightmare to attempt to do, from any practical standpoint and has already been pointed out. Who’s in? Who’s out? Who pays? Who doesn’t? How much? What form does the payment take? How do you deduct the value of the benefits American society has bestowed, even in light of all its flaws?

I think it’s totally unworkable and I think it’s a terrible idea.

5

I tread here lightly because this is one subject that’ll certainly get you alligned in someone’s crosshairs but it is gaining a little momentum and I too am curious about how others feel.

My view is that there were terrible injustices perpetrated against Africans in the past. Neighboring tribes would raid villages and capture it’s inhabitants and sell them to ship captains, collection facilities, etc. Slavery was allowed to exist in the U.S. for a number of years until it the debate over the morality of the issue tore the nation apart.

But a number of things bother me about the notion of reparations and I think they be difficult to quantify to everyone’s satisfaction.

Blacks were often sold to slavers by other blacks. This atrocity was committed by previous generations to previous generations. Some (albeit few) persons were treated well by their owners. Blacks have continued to come to the U.S. over the years through the immigration program. Blacks have mixed with other races throughout the years.

How do you say who gets what? How do you accurately determine ancestry when records often don’t exist. Why should the government be held liable when in fact it was mostly individuals who profited from slavery? What about all the efforts, both through government and charitable programs through the years that have tried to right the wrongs? If this was done, should we then officially end all affirmative action and welfare programs? Why should my family be penalized and my neighbor’s rewarded for events that occurred hendreds of years ago?

I think you can only accurately judge a populace’s actions by understanding the sentiment of the times. We certainly don’t permit slavery today and actively try to insure everyone has the same opportunities in life. I think we’re already on the right course and should stick to it, not try and dredge up some past event that we now see in a very different light from the collective psyche in which it was perpetrated.

6

sorry about the typos. i’ve gotta start proofing!

7

It’s the US as a whole that is liable, not today’s population. The US as a whole DID benefit from slavery (even if the profits from it went mainly to induviduals) because it brought money into the country that was used to build up modern industries; don’t forget the US government is a collective representant of all US individuals. And it existed in the days of slavery, so of course the United States of America as a lex gentum subject is liable for that, IMHO.

8

I am totally convinced that anyone who was a slave in the United States should be paid reparations.

Now we’ve just got to find some 150-year-old people.

9

Although certainly not a “reparation”, I believe that living in this country should be considered “paid in full” to those seeking to bleed a few more dollars from the government over injustices done long ago. I’ve been to Africa a couple of times, and the living conditions are horrible. I realize there are slums and such here, mostly populated by the blacks (I find “African-American” quite divisive, as I don’t want to start calling myself “German-Polish-American” and my wife “Italian-American”, cos then my kids are gonna be “Polish-German-Italian-American”, and someday, they’re going to have children, and quite frankly, I don’t think they’ll have enough room on their DMV form to get a drivers license.) but nothing like what they have over there. I’ve seen beggars who’ve chopped off fingers in order to make themselves look more pitiful to the tourists, just to get a few bucks. True, our past is nothing to be proud of, or forgotten, but it’s done, and can’t be changed. I truly wish we could move on.

10

Posted by Schnitte:
“It’s the US as a whole that is liable, not today’s population. The US as a whole DID benefit from slavery (even if the profits from it went mainly to induviduals) because it brought money into the country that was used to build up modern industries; don’t forget the US government is a collective representant of all US individuals”

This is the first point where your argument falls apart. The African-Americans (I’m one of those who dislikes the term, but I’ll use it for this thread) are PART of the US as a whole. If the US as a whole benefitted, then so have they. Shall we make them provide reparations to themselves?

Or perhaps you will argue now that African-Americans have not benefited as much as caucasians. Well, then it’s not an argument about reparations for slavery at all, is it? Instead, it becomes an argument to repay for the effects of racism; you will, of course, now need to include on the list of those deserving reparation ALL African-Americans and not just those who prove they are descendants of slaves.

But back to your implication that since the US as a whole benefited from slavery all citizens must help pay for reparations, even if we are first or second generations immigrants. Guilt by association? Or guilt by good fortune, perhaps?

But why stop there? By that reasoning, why not have everyone who has benefitted from the wealth of American take part in paying reparations? Taiwan, for instance, would not exist without us so they should pay. Japan’s new economy was built by the US after WWII; break open their piggy bank, I suppose. Israel?

I could stop listing and say that we’ll heavily tax any nation with a Coca Cola sign within its borders.

But then we’d miss the real point behind this reparations, wouldn’t we (and this is the second point where the argument falls apart)? Why are you not insisting that the countries on the Gold and Ivory Coasts pay reparations?

Ah, well. An emotional issue, and I’m risking all kinds of epithets, but there you have it.

IMO: An unjust idea to punish the innocent for the benefit of the unaffected, all for the sole purpose of assuaging a conscience that shouldn’t feel guilty in the first place.

11

Indian affairs guy, checking in.

I note that in very general terms this debate is approaching the question, “when does a society relinquish its debts to the past?” I would like to offer one example of when a government is endebted to an entity for its past indiscretions.

The federal government in the United States has made agreements with Indian tribes from its inception. Furthermore, it has accepted the responsibility of dealing with Indian tribes on a government-to-government basis. Please note that while tribes carry an inherent racial component, the federal government is primarily concerned with Indians as political entities, not as individuals with special rights.

In the 18th and 19th Centuries, American Indians were pretty damned good lawyers, although nobody knew it then. The agreements they secured almost universally stated one thing in particular: there is no statute of limitations on the federal responibility to uphold its agreements with Indian tribes. I still hear people laugh at the phrase “so long as the grass is green” but it is the law and tribes are keen on having the feds uphold it. This concept was and continues to be tested in every conceivable way, about every ten years or so, and has been continuously upheld by the Supreme Court and Congress to date.

(Part of the reason for the longevity of this premise is that every ten years or so, some ignorant bastard comes along and tests the premise again, thereby adding to its ironclad nature.)

Also to date, American Indian tribes have not been entitled to general reparations, but rather are legally entitled to pursue compensation for specific injustices which violated the sovereign relationship between tribes and the United States. This bodes ill for the prospect of reparations, I think.

In other words, this example of a federal debt to the past is completely different from the plight of African-Americans. This is not meant to disparage the obvious examples of prejudice, de facto segregation, and general inequity which I believe I can see only a bus stop away from where I write this.

If I could offer a suggestion to the African-American community, I would recommend that they look instead to the inequitable treatment predominately black communities have received both before and after the Civil Rights Act, and of course the obvious inequities which exist right now, today. Slavery is one very important part of the African American experience, historically, but politically and legally there should be much better targets on which to focus. And focus they should.

12

Just my 2 cents.

I don’t feel that anyone alive today should get repairations for slavey. Some of the reasons for this thought is the questions of who pays ? Who recieves ? What amounts ? and What forms ?

One of the other problems is of course, There is no one alive today that was a slave. If our government was going to make repairations to everyone that they wronged, it would have to include the Native Americans too.

Also I don’t believe that everyone that currently lives in the U.S. should have to pay. Many of us showed up after the Civil War and many of us are not related to anyone who owned slaves.

I think slavery was very wrong, however making reparations is not going to totally erase the wrong that happened. I do feel an apology is certainly in order.

13

Excellent as always, Jodi!

I would have to point out as well that reparations paid to the Holocaust survivors and Japanese-Americans were paid to people who ACTUALLY DID suffer from these events mentioned.

Those people are still living.

Also, where does it end? I know I’m treading a slippery slope here, but what about other descendents of the oppressed in the world? We could argue they are still suffering.

The US as a whole is made up of PEOPLE. People who were born here, and are not at fault for the past. Why not try to make things better, instead of seeking to punish the not guilty to aid the non-affected?

14

I’m afraid that this idea of reparations for slavery is just about the stupidest ever and those pushing it are either being naive or disingenuous.

Fact is that history is full of nasty examples of one set of people getting shafted by another. If we start with this idea that we’re responsible for paying off the old debts for these actions then where does it end? Going to pay the Native Americans the retail land value of the entire US? Do the Italians owe Europe money for the exploits of the Roman Empire? Does Egypt owe an apology to every living Jew for their time in slavery? Do the descendants of Ug owe the descendants of Ook back payment for that ugly stone club incident in 2 million B.C.?

And this is before we consider how on earth we’re going to identify who are the descendants. What do we do with those who are descendants of both slavery victims and slavery beneficiaries? The slavery trade had a fair proportion of Africans doing the trading. Shouldn’t their descendants be taxed to pay for this too? How are we to identify them? Do you know all your great, great grandfathers’ occupations? Quite simply the whole idea ends up in a complex mess that isn’t going to work.

I don’t feel responsible for the actions of the people who may have been my forefathers, no matter how much I deplore what they did. Nor do I think it is possible to identify individuals who are suffering as a direct result of these actions any more than you can identify individuals who are benefiting. I don’t even feel a grudge against those whose forefathers may have suppressed mine. And who’s to say I, as a white European, am not personally worse off as the result of slavery? Unlikely maybe, but who can tell?

Most of the ‘crimes’ we’re talking about now were not criminal at the time. They may even have been consider perfectly respectable. Some of the things we consider reasonable today may be outrageous crimes in the future. Should your children be made to pay for the unforgivable crimes you committed today? I don’t think so. No-one is responsible for the crimes of their fathers/mothers.

If there are inequalities or injustices in the modern world (as no doubt there are) then they should be addressed in the present, not by harking back and trying to apply today’s laws and morals to actions performed centuries ago.

15

I would agree with The US paying reparations if there were slaves still alive. But they are all dead, all the slave-owners are dead, nothing will change the past. Will $20,000 given to youy change the fact that your great grandmother was raped repeatedly? Heck, no! Repearations has the potential to tear this country apart, many whites feel that they owe nothing, and will resent paying anything to blacks, and if blacks ever get money, if they ever complain about anything ever again, all the whites will be like “Shut up, was gave you $20,000 to shut up, so shut up!” Racism is a problem that you can’t just throw money at.
I for one would like it if my money went to stop slavery in areas where it is still happening, rather than to some phantom fund for reparations for something a good chunk of my family was still in europe for while it was happening.

16

IMHO,

It’s just plain silly when you consider that most of the pre-colonial African kingdoms were on the acquiring and selling end of the slave business - and of course, had slavery.

(Throughout history, slavery was often the best option for a conquered people. The Mongols, for example, had little use for slaves. If an area would not, or could not pay tribute, they simply killed everyone.)

It’s outrageous in the sense that the same countries braying the loudest for reparations do absolutely nothing about the continual practice of African slavery in the Sudan.

It’s stupid when you dip that far back into history for grievances against the long-dead. Should the slavic nations of eastern Europe demand reparations too - the name slavic means slave, of course. Like Africa, most of these nations are also up to their necks with debt.

It’s too late to hand over 40 acres and a mule - which should have done in 1865 btw. But what about compensation for the 100 years of Jim Crow segregation - an apartheit system that existed well beyond the old Confederacy, and often was just as if not more violent than slavery?

Yes, fortunes were made on the slave trade, however reprehensible. But that’s not unique - the Delano fortune (as in FDR) was built on the opium trade in China. Despite the gains from slavery in this country, the U.S. can state that the hundreds of thousands of lives lost in the Civil War and that war’s cost in the millions of dollars of devastation were sufficient punishment for the sins of slavery.

dos centavos

17

Nitpick: the word Slav means “glory”, or “the word”. The word slave was taken from Slav, not the other way around.

18

The entire question is very similar to the holocaust victims reparation debate in Germany. Of course, the recipients of those payments did themselves suffer, yet there are many people in Germany today who argue “Why should I, who was born longer after the Nazi rule, pay reparations to Nazi victims?”
Nonetheless German politician have never denied that Germany, even today’s Germany, is fully liable for the Nazi crimes and obliged to pay reparations.
Of course, I am not in touch with this question too closely since I’m not American, but I think it would be fair.

“Most of the ‘crimes’ we’re talking about now were not criminal at the time” Not legally, but the concept of human rights did exist, as well as the concept of human dignity, and those were part of the US legal system. The fact that specific acts legalized it does not change this, so those acts legalizing slavery would have been vaud since their very drafting.

19

BUT, if you recall, much of the “Nazi” gold was still sitting in banks, and it had belonged to the people still living. They were only getting back what had been their’s before.

20

False, with the exception of folks descended from recent African immigrants (most numerous are those descended from 19th century Cabo Verde immigrants) almost all African Americans are descended from slaves, as well as slave holders, American Indians, others etc.

I beleive Nixon, despite getting the Slav story wrong, has hit on the best point. Likely factually, legally, and otherwise practically speaking the best case for a successful reparations movement for black Americans would be in re segregation since 1865 and above all inadequate civil protection during the tail end of the Jim Crow period/beginning Civil Rights movement. I suspect one could in fact make a strong, not easily defeated case on that.