Okay… this is irrelevant to anything I’ve been saying (once again), which is about the US government’s responsibility (and the responsibility of American society as a whole, IMO) for various forms of discrimination that have harmed living Americans.
One of the most common objections is the supposed impossibility of actually identifying those living Americans who were harmed by specific policies like redlining. This is a bullshit objection – such detailed identification, even of millions of individuals, has been accomplished before – most notably by Holocaust researchers. They identified literally millions of names of Holocaust victims. And most of that was done without the internet. Identifying which Americans were harmed by various discriminatory policies would be very difficult, but it would indeed be possible.
I wonder what polling of asians say to these same questions. Sure, there is a huge difference in degree but there is a noticable level of anti asian discrimination in our society coming from both sides.
This state of affairs exists in every country in every time period throughout history. What makes you think we can legislate it away?
Feel free to make such a case. This doesn’t appear to present any conflict to anything I’ve said or advocated for.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Every country has its own history, usually with various injustices, and countries address or ignore this history in different ways. Some of these responses have been more or less effective in addressing injustice, IMO. Unless you’re arguing that there’s never any point, ever, in making any effort at all to make up for any historical injustice, even when living people have been harmed, then I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. And if you are trying to say that, then I disagree, since I think the US, Germany, and other countries have indeed done some good things that makes some progress, which helped society in general, in addressing some past injustices.
I agree. Anti-asian discrimination is a separate issue from AA.
Harvard managed to discriminate against Jews without AA. And AA existed at Harvard before there were enough asians to trigger the anti Asian discrimination.
Conflating the two issues is an optical illusion that anti AA folks want to fool you with. It’s political sleight of hand
Much of the harm is so subtle its almost imperceptible. Too much of the “harm” is more closely correlated to income than race. To the extent income is divided along racial lines due to historical racial injustice, that income disparity is really a race based disparity.
I think the counterargument for your points sums up to: We have done so much damage to so many people, not only to those who are still living, but in ways that is still causing ongoing harm to even the most current generation that there really is no way to effectively quantify what that damage is, nor how to make those victims whole. Therefore, we will ignore it and hope that it goes away, if it doesn’t, then we will let our children deal with it.
I think this is about where I am. I would stop short of the crit race theory bases of compensation but there is a legacy cost to slavery and segregation and other explicit laws and policies that could probably be studied further.
The government’s purpose wasn’t to cause discrimination, it was how the banks *used that data *that was discriminatory. Which is why they got sued and people collected.
Or perhaps you want the people who sued and collected to collect again?
And many of those people who were harmed sued and collected. So, apparently you want people who were not harmed by redlining to collect? Or people who sued to collect again?
Redlining is a very bad example.
Sure, but we cant spend ten times our annual budget giveing each black person hundreds of thousands of dollars and then also give back all of America to the natives.
The injustices have been addressed in many cases by new laws and in the courts.
We’ve already hashed this out, and in another thread you even (finally) agreed with me that yes, redlining was in fact discriminatory government policy.
More straw-manning. Yawn. I’ll be here when you want to discuss what I’ve actually proposed and advocated for.
I’m talking about living Americans who were harmed by discriminatory policies and who have not received justice, which could come in many forms. If you’re arguing that there are no such Americans, then that seems like an utterly ridiculous assertion. If you’re arguing that there are some such Americans, but it’s not worth finding out who they are, or what they deserve, then I’ll disagree with you on principle.
The individual’s right to discrimination is such a cornerstone of society to this day. The strange loners who were shunned by their peers in school and ostracized in the workplace know this.
No, I didnt. Yes, the uS govt gave data that the banks used for discriminatory purpose. In fact I have refuted this claim right here in this thread, so you’re not paying attention.
Then tell us how much you want to give and to who.
The devil *is *in the details.
This idea is “well, let’s all agree we do have to pay reparations= then we’ll tell you how much after you agree” is bogus.
If your guilt is bothering you, why not make a nice donation to the NAACP and stop trying to pick* our* pockets for your guilt? I have no guilt on this. My ancestors didnt keep black slaves. On my mother side they came from eastern Europe and on my Dads side they made them sign up for the Union army pretty much the day they arrived. So, we fought to end slavery. But of course- the millions of lives and billions of dollars the government spent to end slavery dont matter to the repartions crowd. They want their forty acres and a mule plus 150 years of interest, despite that fact that the Government never promised any such thing.
It was US agency guidelines, not just bank decisions, that were discriminatory. The US lending agencies categorized areas based on factors like “desirability” of the populations within.
If you’re saying that in the early 20th century, these US government guidelines about “desirability” of a population had nothing to do with race, then I have a bridge to sell you.
None of this has anything to do with what I’ve said. If you want to respond to my actual posts, please be specific. Show me the actual things I’ve proposed that you disagree with. Not this straw-manning nonsense.