Replace income tax with property taxes?

Reading the discussion generated in this thread, it brought to mind a discussion with a friend recently where he suggested that perhaps we should fund the Federal Government with property taxes instead of income taxes. At first I thought that was stupid and unfair, but as I thought about it, it’s making more sense to me.

I would envision a system similar to local property taxes where real estate is taxed annually based on appraised value with homestead and senior exemptions, etc. I’m thinkng this would be progressive, as the wealthy own the most property value, and would be difficult to circumvent, therefore high compliance rate. It eliminates the dastardly IRS and keeps the government (mostly) out of our personal finances.

Sounds good to me. Whaddya think?

The biggest problems I see

A. it would have to be a whopping tax. I mean to make the 100’s of billions of dollars it needs to replace the personal income tax it would have to be gigantic. Somebody smarter than me can do the math, but it will be huge.

B. Lack of property owners: Places like NYC & other urban areas where the rich often live, they often don’t own property. Not to mention retirees…

C. Disproportionate Impact on Property owners: Someone like Trump would be bankrupted, someone like Bill Gates, other than a tax on his home, would pay no taxes

Income taxes, that is, taxes that are levied as a percentage of income, have the virtue that people will actually have the money to pay them. (You could take 90% of people’s total income, and leave them without money for food, shelter, and clothing. In fact, even in steeply progressive income tax systems, this doesn’t really happen; even in times and places where the top bracket is something really high like 90%, this only means that every dollar you make in excess of $1 million–or whatever the floor for the bracket is–is taxed at the rate of 90 cents on the dollar. I’m not necessarily defending 90% top income tax brackets by the way; and currently, the highest Federal income tax bracket in the U.S. is something like 39%.)

A potential problem with property taxes is that someone might own property which is appraised at a high value, yet not necessarily derive any income from that property. Property taxes can thus essentially force “development”/“progress”/“suburban sprawl”–take your pick what you call it; lots of people don’t really like it much, and even if you don’t think the government should be actively trying to stop it, I don’t think the government should be practically forcing it to happen.

In addition to the social and ecological effects, there is also the sheer injustice of making some nice old farmer sell the family farm that’s been in his family for umpteen generations, when all he wants to do is make a modest living growing peanuts, but because they just put in a Wal-Mart down the road the property values have now officially skyrocketed, he can’t afford to pay his property tax bill out of what he makes selling peanuts, even though his peanut farm is actually still economically viable, and he must sell out and move to a soulless suburban tract house which he deeply hates.

You might be able to avoid this sort of thing by some expedient such as only levying property taxes on what the person actually paid for it, and not on the unrealized potential value of what the property would likely go for on the open market. But this sort of gaping loophole would probably invite all sorts of abuse by clever lawyers and accountants, and if you used a tax with a “frozen” base as your main source of government revenue, you would probably drastically downsize government. Many radical tax reform schemes seem to actually be radical libertarian government-shrinking schemes; I think if people want to drastically shrink what the government does, they should be upfront about it with the voters, and not screw with the tax code in hopes of starving all the popular government programs to death on the sly.

Some more specific points:

Why would it be any harder to cook the books on the value of your land than on the value of your income? It’s not like real estate laywers and real estate attorneys are particularly inept at generating convulution and obfuscation when they want to.

So people would go from hating the income tax people to hating the property tax people. Their would still need to be a mechanism for assessing and collecting taxes and going after people who don’t pay up.

Well, it shifts the government from one part of your finances to another. Better fax those plans for your new home improvement projects to the tax people; your assesment may have changed!

There is another option - which isn’t an income tax and isn’t just real property - its a wealth tax.

It sucks.

Total value of U.S real estate is about $17.2 Trillion. cite
Total income tax receipts are running around $1.1 Trillion.

Total property tax rate would be around 6.4%, perhaps a little more with exemptions.

Someone owns all that property in NYC. Even people who don’t own the apartment will pay the appropriate taxes, as they will passed on to the renter in the form of higher rents by the property owner.

And I mentioned exemptions for seniors. Similar thing already exists for local property taxes.

Current system has a disproportionate impact on people who try to live within their means and save for the future, as well as those retired folk who foolishly want a higher standard of living than SS provides, and those who live in high cost of living areas with higher incomes to match. Also, income tax varies by type of income (i.e. capital gains are taxed more lightly).

I’m thinking this may be very workable.

Is this tax any more or less just than an income tax, in your mind?

It seems to me that it would lead to lots of really pointless and inefficient activity to avoid the tax: like deliberately finding ways to reduce your property value. That would be disasterous.

It also seems to me that this tax would basically skew an economy in favor of economic activity that does not use a lot of land. From the perspective of someone who thinks that different sorts of production methods and technologies should have a level playing field to compete (how else can we relaly be sure we’ve picked the right ones?), that also seems pretty undesireable.

To MEBuckner:

I agree with much of what you say. However, every objection you raise is already being dealt with by the current system of state and local property taxes. Farm land, seniors, and homeowners get exemptions to alleviate their tax burden due to owning non-income producing property. And, yes, it is more difficult to “cook the books” on real estate compared to the cheating that goes on with income or sales taxes. All the information is public domain and the property cannot be hidden or moved offshore.

To Dangerosa:

I’m definitely with you on wealth taxes, but I think that limiting the wealth tax to real estate property only makes a big difference on the viability and onerousness of the tax. All real estate property ownership is already fully public domain information and real estate is more likely to be income-producing, as well as owned by the members of society that have the means to pay taxes.

I’m all for this idea. As a retiree I would move to Mexico or some other country where property is cheap and live in style with the proceeds from my untaxed investments. :wink:

No no no no. If you would like to see a “good” example of basing the entire tax system on property tax, come visit my state. ** It does not work*. If it worked, we wouldn’t have had the lawsuits (Claremont case) for the past decade that we’re still trying to work out. It may sound good in theory, but in it doesn’t work in practice.

Well, I don’t think the point of taxes is justice. I think the point is to raise the most money with the least negative impact on society. I love the national sales tax concept but I think this may be better because compliance is easier to manage (high sales taxes encourage under-the-table cash transactions).

There’s no pointless and inefficient activity to avoid the income tax now? People try to reduce their property value (i.e. assessment) now. It’s very difficult without actually reducing its value.

I don’t know, it seems to me that using minimal land would be more desireable. It’s the one thing we can’t produce more of.

New Hampshire? What problems are you having? We have the same thing here in Texas and I haven’t noticed any significant issues in the 46 years that I have lived here.

Flex, you’re obviously discounting all the crises Texas has had in recent decades regarding public school financing and its connection to property tax. Also, the State of Texas is not funded by property taxes, but by sales taxes (28% of state revenues), other taxes, fees and Federal grants.

State Comptroller’s Statistics

Property taxes go to the local governments in Texas, not the state.

And we are facing a looming potential financial crisis, as well. The “teacher’s health insurance” bill that dolt Perry signed earlier this year has the potential to become a massive money-guzzler, and could cause Texas outlays to begin to grow at a faster rate than our revenue base, forcing the state either to begin steadily increasing our already-high sales tax, begin adding state-directed property taxes, or even (gasp) an income tax.

Kirk

I’m sorry, but I fail to see the relevance of any of your arguments to the subject at hand. Why does it matter me when contemplating a federal real estate property tax that a similar tax is levied at the local and not state level now?

The problems you are alluding to in Texas with the school districts are precisely because the taxes are local and not state. Some people here think that every school district should have the same amount of money available regardless of the residents ability to pay for it, hence the “Robin Hood” proposals which take money from the wealthier school districts and give to the poorer ones. If the tax was state-wide this situation wouldn’t exist, nor would it exist at the federal level that we are discussing.

Also, your own phrasing (possibly tongue-in-cheek) of the “(gasp)” income tax reveals how much more onerous an income tax is than a property tax. I don’t want a state income tax and I don’t want a federal income tax. A federal property tax seems a great (not perfect) way to accomplish that goal.

—I don’t know, it seems to me that using minimal land would be more desireable. It’s the one thing we can’t produce more of.—

That fact is ALREADY taken into account by the market for land.

**

You were claiming, it appeared, that New Hampshire shouldn’t be having any problems by basing its income on property taxes because Texas does. I was point out that Texas doesn’t. The state doesn’t fund ANYTHING using property taxes, only local governments do.

Because your basic contention appeared to be “well it works at the state level here in Texas,” except that it doesn’t work at the state level, because it’s not a state-level tax, and it doesn’t really work at the county level because it has created extremely impovrished school districts that can’t adequetely educate children.

Perhaps.

[quote]
If the tax was state-wide this situation wouldn’t exist, nor would it exist at the federal level that we are discussing.

No, the “gasp” we because I’m sure you think that the income tax is more onerous. I don’t. I think that any tax system that could potentially let Bill Gates earn a billion dollars a year and live in a shack on the highway and pay no taxation while a family of five could potentially go bust making $50,000 and trying to keep up with property tax levels on their four bedroom home quite onerous.

Or what about a family that lives on a ranch in West Texas, and oil fields are discovered in the area. That could potentially send their property values skyrocketing, to the point that they’d have to move.

An income tax is moral because you KNOW that people can afford to pay it, because it is drawn out of funds that you KNOW they have. A federal property tax could ruin the lives of many, many people, driving them from their family homes, etc.

Plus it would be un-Constitutional. The Constitution states that any direct tax apon the people must be proportional to the population of each state. Amendment XVI adapts this to allow a income-based tax, but only taxes regarding income. Switching to some absurd property-tax based system would require an amendment to the Constitution.

Kirk

—An income tax is moral because you KNOW that people can afford to pay it, because it is drawn out of funds that you KNOW they have.—

That doesn’t make it moral: it just makes it more workable without a ridiculous amount of kludges.

I wonder if this is really true. I know I hear it all the time, but I don’t think that it happens like that.

I happen to be a small time landlord with 3 duplexes. When I have to set the price on one of my units I spend exactly zero effort worrying about what my current taxes are. The only thing I’m interested in is the price the market will bear, and that has to do almost entirely with occupancy rates. If my property taxes go up one year but the rental market drops at the same time, I would be a fool to try to increase my rents just to make up for my taxes. Now, there are a lot of foolish landlords out there who seem to think that just because their costs have gone up that their tenants should show them compassion and gladly pay extra rent, but after a couple months of a vacant property they generally come back to where the rest of us are.

There may be some forces operating at the macro-economic level that cause a correlation between rising taxes and rising rental rates, but I don’t think that many (successful) landlords simply raise their rents to help pay for their taxes.

I would be interested to hear what others with more qualifications in economics have to say about this.

Well, if there was heavy competition in your market, one might expect that you wouldn’t have any other choice but to raise rents just to break even if the costs went up. It’s not clear what’s going on in your case, but “where the rest of us are” sounds very much like a particular price level, and heavy property taxes could not help but change that level.

That some landlords have especially high costs that they can’t recoup with rents might well drive them out of the market: and there is nothing odd about that (that’s what a market supply curve is all about, after all). What really matters is where the market level is: and I have no doubt that that place would change radically if EVERY landlord’s costs went up due to more taxes. Remember: what the market will bear is not just a factor of what people demand: it’s also determined by whether enough landlords can really deliver apartments at any given price level.

http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20010720/NH_008.htm <–to show that the state does rely exclusively on property tax.

And on to the problems:

http://www.conval.edu/Schools/CVHS/cap/issue1.htm

http://www.edweek.org/ew/ewstory.cfm?slug=09nh.h19

http://www.edweek.org/ew/ewstory.cfm?slug=34nh.h20

http://www.nhpr.org/content/fullmonty_view.php/2343/

http://www.nhpr.org/content/fullmonty_view.php/2557/

http://www.unionleader.com/articles_show.html?article=7156

I don’t think the US government would do any better at it on a national level then this state has.